ebay finds that PWCC engaged in shill bidding?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Guys, before you use some dodgy tax evading mechanism, PLEASE consult someone competent in your state. Taxable events are not limited to transfer of possession; they also include transfer of title. For example, California Revenue & Taxation Code section 6010 defines "Purchase" as including either transfer of title or transfer of possession.

The fact that eBay doesn't collect the tax on an item shipped to OR does not mean you do not owe use tax on the item in your state. You received title to it, so odds are that your state considers you to have purchased it.

My uncle was a tax attorney. His advice to me was just pay the taxes and save yourself the headaches.

Adam, I said the same thing to check with their own tax advisors AND to be sure to check the specific sales tax rules for whatever state they are in. I certainly do not know everything about every state's laws, and all the constant tax law changes can drive anyone crazy. I got your CA point about the transfer of title and transfer of possession, but based on what Snowman heard from PWCC, there wouldn't be any CA sales or use tax due unless he took possession back in CA of cards he had won off Ebay, that went straight into the vault. So I wonder if the same thing would be true for something he won from an auction house (not Ebay) that also got sent right to the vault with no sales tax charged? If not, then it sounds like Ebay and/or PWCC had to cut some special deal with CA. Now Ebay cutting a deal with all the states to collect and remit sales tax on behalf of all their sellers I get. But PWCC suddenly having to possibly withhold and remit sales tax to CA on something they are just holding in a vault for a customer doesn't make any sense, unless it is something they had to agree to with CA in trying to get themselves set up tax-wise with all the states in advance of launching their new sales platform and operations. Now I'm even more curious as to what people using their vault actually signed up for and agreed to. Very odd if you ask me.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by BobC

Adam, I said the same thing to check with their own tax advisors AND to be sure to check the specific sales tax rules for whatever state they are in. I certainly do not know everything about every state's laws, and all the constant tax law changes can drive anyone crazy. I got your CA point about the transfer of title and transfer of possession, but based on what Snowman heard from PWCC, there wouldn't be any CA sales or use tax due unless he took possession back in CA of cards he had won off Ebay, that went straight into the vault. So I wonder if the same thing would be true for something he won from an auction house (not Ebay) that also got sent right to the vault with no sales tax charged? If not, then it sounds like Ebay and/or PWCC had to cut some special deal with CA. Now Ebay cutting a deal with all the states to collect and remit sales tax on behalf of all their sellers I get. But PWCC suddenly having to possibly withhold and remit sales tax to CA on something they are just holding in a vault for a customer doesn't make any sense, unless it is something they had to agree to with CA in trying to get themselves set up tax-wise with all the states in advance of launching their new sales platform and operations. Now I'm even more curious as to what people using their vault actually signed up for and agreed to. Very odd if you ask me.

The duty to remit isn't theirs, it is yours under the use tax rules.

I really would not trust anything someone at PWCC tells me about my tax obligations. Not only do they have no expertise and no duty to me to advise me accurately, they also have a huge disincentive to tell me the truth: money. What are they going to say, "yeah, you owe taxes even if you have the cards sent here, just eBay won't collect them, but if you ever get audited you will get nailed"? If they said that no one would use their dumbass service.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The duty to remit isn't theirs, it is yours under the use tax rules.

I really would not trust anything someone at PWCC tells me about my tax obligations. Not only do they have no expertise and no duty to me to advise me accurately, they also have a huge disincentive to tell me the truth: money. What are they going to say, "yeah, you owe taxes even if you have the cards sent here, just eBay won't collect them, but if you ever get audited you will get nailed"? If they said that no one would use their dumbass service.

After I ask PWCC for tax advice, I will ask them to point me to all their altered cards and for advice on how high to bid. And for advice on which assets to invest in.

[Frankish]

It's a shame that PWCC's own ebay auction business and other alleged behavior is conflated with the vault business. Personally, I think the vault was a great idea. The prices were (for me) reasonable and made holding mid and high end graded cards I was interested in selling at some point easy. The fees to sell through them and the absolute lack of hassle involved was unparalleled. If someone offered that service independently, I would be all over it.

Even the PWCC additional ratings for eye appeal and whatnot were, I think, a good innovation. And, if I'm honest, I tend to agree that most of their indicated cards were in fact very nice for the grade (if not under graded). That only speaks to false positives though. I have no idea how many potentially under-graded cards they passed over.

Anyway, I can't speak to or defend their own auction behavior or potential sales tax issues (it's not something I was ever involved with nor am I an expert in those areas by any stretch). But I do think the vault and the way it operated with ebay was a terrific idea, well-implemented and a good value for customers like me. It's a shame to lose that.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Frankish

It's a shame that PWCC's own ebay auction business and other alleged behavior is conflated with the vault business. Personally, I think the vault was a great idea. The prices were (for me) reasonable and made holding mid and high end graded cards I was interested in selling at some point easy. The fees to sell through them and the absolute lack of hassle involved was unparalleled. If someone offered that service independently, I would be all over it.

Even the PWCC additional ratings for eye appeal and whatnot were, I think, a good innovation. And, if I'm honest, I tend to agree that most of their indicated cards were in fact very nice for the grade (if not under graded). That only speaks to false positives though. I have no idea how many potentially under-graded cards they passed over.

Anyway, I can't speak to or defend their own auction behavior or potential sales tax issues (it's not something I was ever involved with nor am I an expert in those areas by any stretch). But I do think the vault and the way it operated with ebay was a terrific idea, well-implemented and a good value for customers like me. It's a shame to lose that.

Regarding the part in bold, while perhaps an "innovation", I would hardly call it a good one. BODA conclusively revealed that a huge percentage of those "nice for the grade" cards were "Moser Specials". And of those that were not linked to Moser, many were tainted by other known card doctors.

Any informed collector could see that those stickers served the same purpose as many well-known traffic signs, like "Stop", "Proceed with Caution", "Detour" or "Do Not Enter". Or perhaps my favorite... "Construction Zone".

Perhaps the use (or misuse) of those stickers should be classified as "Card Trafficking".

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Regarding the part in bold, while perhaps an "innovation", I would hardly call it a good one. BODA conclusively revealed that a huge percentage of those "nice for the grade" cards were "Moser Specials". And of those that were not linked to Moser, many were tainted by other known card doctors.

Any informed collector could see that those stickers served the same purpose as many well-known traffic signs, like "Stop", "Proceed with Caution", "Detour" or "Do Not Enter". Or perhaps my favorite... "Construction Zone".

Perhaps the use (or misuse) of those stickers should be classified as "Card Trafficking".

People just don't get it. It's remarkable to me that people are STILL supporting him, and excusing him, and explaining away obvious BS, and so forth. WTF

Imagine if he gets indicted.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

People just don't get it. It's remarkable to me that people are STILL supporting him, and excusing him, and explaining away obvious BS, and so forth. WTF

Imagine if he gets indicted.

Maybe they will show up at sentencing as character witnesses.

[Frankish]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

People just don't get it. It's remarkable to me that people are STILL supporting him, and excusing him, and explaining away obvious BS, and so forth. WTF

Imagine if he gets indicted.

I guess we can't all be as smart as you.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The duty to remit isn't theirs, it is yours under the use tax rules.

I really would not trust anything someone at PWCC tells me about my tax obligations. Not only do they have no expertise and no duty to me to advise me accurately, they also have a huge disincentive to tell me the truth: money. What are they going to say, "yeah, you owe taxes even if you have the cards sent here, just eBay won't collect them, but if you ever get audited you will get nailed"? If they said that no one would use their dumbass service.

I know, that's why I was saying it didn't make any sense. And I was thinking like you, just didn't say it out loud. LOL

For the heck of it, I did do a little quick research to see if I could find anything related to owning/using an asset outside of CA before bringing into the state that would specifically exempt it from being subject to CA sales and use tax. I didn't find anything specific in regards to cards or any other personal property, and didn't really expect to. But did get lucky on CA's own site and found that if you purchase and use a motor vehicle outside of CA for at least 12 months and then bring it into CA, you owe no sales or use tax on the vehicle. Even if you originally bought it in Oregon where you paid no sales tax at all. Gives me some faith that if you purchased and kept something like baseball cards in a vault outside of CA for at least a year or two before you then tried to bring them into CA, they may no longer be subject to CA sales or use tax either. I'll have to do some more digging.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

I know, that's why I was saying it didn't make any sense. And I was thinking like you, just didn't say it out loud. LOL

For the heck of it, I did do a little quick research to see if I could find anything related to owning/using an asset outside of CA before bringing into the state that would specifically exempt it from being subject to CA sales and use tax. I didn't find anything specific in regards to cards or any other personal property, and didn't really expect to. But did get lucky on CA's own site and found that if you purchase and use a motor vehicle outside of CA for at least 12 months and then bring it into CA, you owe no sales or use tax on the vehicle. Even if you originally bought it in Oregon where you paid no sales tax at all. Gives me some faith that if you purchased and kept something like baseball cards in a vault outside of CA for at least a year or two before you then tried to bring them into CA, they may no longer be subject to CA sales or use tax either. I'll have to do some more digging.

What does it mean to USE the vehicle elsewhere, maybe that's the key to why you don't owe use tax because you already used it. You said purchase AND use. Are you using a card sitting in a vault?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What does it mean to USE the vehicle elsewhere, maybe that's the key to why you don't owe use tax because you already used it. You said purchase AND use. Are you using a card sitting in a vault?

I know that may sound dumb, but that is what it says. Think of it this way, you live in CA, and have a second/vacation home somewhere in Oregon. And when you stay there with family you end up buying an extra car from an Oregon dealer and just leave it there at the Oregon house should someone staying there need to use it. And then one day you just decide to sell the Oregon house and simply bring the Oregon vehicle back to CA with you. If you had owned that Oregon car for at least 12 months before bringing it back to CA, you would owe no use tax on the car to CA. But lets say you only owned it for 9 months before bringing it back, you would owe CA the full use tax on whatever you originally paid for the vehicle, because you had bought it in Oregon and paid no sales tax on it it to start with. Had you bought and used the vehicle in a state other than Oregon, where you did pay a sales tax on it when you bought it, you would still owe CA use tax on it if you brought it back to CA before owning it at least 12 months. And the CA use tax would still be based on the original purchase price of the vehicle, except now you would reduce the use tax you owe CA dollar for dollar by the amount of sales tax you originally paid to the state you bought the car in.

As for "using" a card you keep in the vault, you could say it is being held and used as potential inventory for an upcoming sale or something like that. The definition can likely be somewhat loose. Like maybe you just parked the car when you first got it, and then never drove it again till you got it back to CA. During that entire time it had still been available for use, right?