Let's talk about Hall of Fame candidates who have been "neglected"

[Ricky]

Originally Posted by packs

I'm still shaky on this burden of proof that seems to exist for some people (David Ortiz / Jeff Bagwell / Mike Piazza) but not others. Roger Clemens didn't exactly get "caught" cheating but is there a question about whether he was? How about Barry Bonds? Do you need a deposition to know he cheated?

Why the wishy-washy attitude toward guys like Bagwell, Piazza, Ivan Rodriguez and David Ortiz? In my opinion it is quite obvious they all cheated the same way McGwire and Sosa did.

I don't think Ortiz is obvious the way McGwire, Bonds and Sosa were. Ortiz was never cut... even as a young player, he was a bit plump. And he still looks the same as he did when playing. McGwire, Sosa, Bonds.... they physically changed and if you look at McGwire now, he looks like he shrunk. Bonds' hat sizes increased two sizes. That's not normal. Did Ortiz' stats improve from his time in Minnesota as a young player? Yes, but how much of that was maturation as a player and being given a chance to play full-time? He apparently tested positive for something, but who knows what it was? There were a lot of substances were on the list but were meaningless... and his numbers continued to improve after that test and more stringent testing was put into place. Meanwhile BALCO swirled around McGwire, Bonds and Sosa... I forget the deal with Clemens but didn't someone report that he was sticking needles in his butt (I could be confusing that with someone else)?

[packs]

Originally Posted by Ricky

I don't think Ortiz is obvious the way McGwire, Bonds and Sosa were. Ortiz was never cut... even as a young player, he was a bit plump. And he still looks the same as he did when playing. McGwire, Sosa, Bonds.... they physically changed and if you look at McGwire now, he looks like he shrunk. Bonds' hat sizes increased two sizes. That's not normal. Did Ortiz' stats improve from his time in Minnesota as a young player? Yes, but how much of that was maturation as a player and being given a chance to play full-time? He apparently tested positive for something, but who knows what it was? There were a lot of substances were on the list but were meaningless... and his numbers continued to improve after that test and more stringent testing was put into place. Meanwhile BALCO swirled around McGwire, Bonds and Sosa... I forget the deal with Clemens but didn't someone report that he was sticking needles in his butt (I could be confusing that with someone else)?

Clemens' old trainer accused him of cheating but there was no "proof". So, why is he guilty because a guy said so but others aren't? Ortiz failed a test in 2003. He then later claimed that when he finds out why he failed the test, he'd share the information publicly. But he of course never did that. Timing seems suspicious though, doesn't it? In 2003 Ortiz was more or less nobody. In 2004 he makes his first All Star team. Hmmmm......

Ivan Rodriguez though, to me, is the most obvious case. All you have to do is look at a photo of him in his Texas prime and compare it to the little guy who ended up on the Yankees later on.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by packs

Clemens' old trainer accused him of cheating but there was no "proof". So, why is he guilty because a guy said so but others aren't? Ortiz failed a test in 2003. He then later claimed that when he finds out why he failed the test, he'd share the information publicly. But he of course never did that. Timing seems suspicious though, doesn't it? In 2003 Ortiz was more or less nobody. In 2004 he makes his first All Star team. Hmmmm......

Ivan Rodriguez though, to me, is the most obvious case. All you have to do is look at a photo of him in his Texas prime and compare it to the little guy who ended up on the Yankees later on.

Though it shouldn't matter, clemens and bonds are a-holes- and that DOES resonate.

.

[packs]

Want to hear another coincidence? Pudge turned 32 in 2004, the same year MLB institutes testing. He then goes the next 7 years without putting up an OPS over 100, which is technically not even replacement level talent.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by packs

Want to hear another coincidence? Pudge turned 32 in 2004, the same year MLB institutes testing. He then goes the next 7 years without putting up an OPS over 100, which is technically not even replacement level talent.

Wow, a catcher who had below league average offense after turning 32? Sounds like, we’ll…95% of catchers ever.

Not saying he didn’t use…but this guessing is dumb. We should just elect on merit for anyone who didn’t fail a test once the league got serious about testing.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by packs

Ortiz failed a test in 2003. He then later claimed that when he finds out why he failed the test, he'd share the information publicly. But he of course never did that. Timing seems suspicious though, doesn't it? In 2003 Ortiz was more or less nobody. In 2004 he makes his first All Star team. Hmmmm......

Ortiz allegedly failed a test that was to set a baseline for if future testing would happen. This was leaked by the NY media….and no confirmation has ever happened, and no other names were released or leaked.

And it’s not like you take steroids and then you’re good for a decade…you know once testing started the HR hitters were “randomly” tested more than the 150 utility infielders.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

Ortiz allegedly failed a test that was to set a baseline for if future testing would happen. This was leaked by the NY media….and no confirmation has ever happened, and no other names were released or leaked.

And it’s not like you take steroids and then you’re good for a decade…you know once testing started the HR hitters were “randomly” tested more than the 150 utility infielders.

You sure about that? How do you explain the second prime of Clemens' career then? He didn't fail a test either. Was he cheating? Obviously.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by packs

You sure about that? How do you explain the second prime of Clemens' career then? He didn't fail a test either. Was he cheating? Obviously.

Am I sure Ortiz or Clemens did or didn’t cheat? Of course not…none of us are.

Is it LESS likely that they used after testing became widespread? Yes, although obviously the testing isn’t infallible.

It’s impossible to know who used what when and what effect it had. We can know someone used something at a point in time if they test positive. We can see evidence that they used (Mitchell report, accusations from Clemen’s trainer). But approaches like “leaked test results” and “backne” are less reliable.

[Ricky]

Originally Posted by packs

Clemens' old trainer accused him of cheating but there was no "proof". So, why is he guilty because a guy said so but others aren't? Ortiz failed a test in 2003. He then later claimed that when he finds out why he failed the test, he'd share the information publicly. But he of course never did that. Timing seems suspicious though, doesn't it? In 2003 Ortiz was more or less nobody. In 2004 he makes his first All Star team. Hmmmm......

Ivan Rodriguez though, to me, is the most obvious case. All you have to do is look at a photo of him in his Texas prime and compare it to the little guy who ended up on the Yankees later on.

Ortiz was pretty good in 2003 - 31 HR, 101 RBI, .288. If you look at his career, he was playing more and getting better up to 2003. And after that positive result .... for what? .... he was tested pretty stringently and regularly and he continued to produce at ever greater levels.

[egri]

Originally Posted by packs

Ortiz failed a test in 2003. He then later claimed that when he finds out why he failed the test, he'd share the information publicly. But he of course never did that. Timing seems suspicious though, doesn't it? In 2003 Ortiz was more or less nobody. In 2004 he makes his first All Star team. Hmmmm......

The Twins were trying to turn Ortiz into a singles hitter who didn't strike out, and it didn't help that he fractured his wrist a couple times and then his mom died just as he was starting to break out. When he got to Boston, Pedro and Manny told him to forget about hitting singles and swing for the fences.

[Peter_Spaeth]

How is Pinson underrated? Seems to me your classic very good player which is how he is thought of.


Hall of Fame Statistics





Black Ink
Batting - 18 (153), AverageHOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink
Batting - 135 (158), AverageHOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 95 (194), LikelyHOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 36 (215), AverageHOFer ≈ 50

JAWS
Center Field (20th):
54.1 career WAR| 40.0 7yr-peak WAR| 47.0 JAWS| 3.6 WAR/162
Average HOF CF (out of 19):
71.9 career WAR | 44.8 7yr-peak WAR | 58.3 JAWS | 5.4 WAR/162