Authenticating 19th century baseball cabinet cards

[oldjudge]

Jim O’Rourke is definitely photo 1 and, in my mind, probably but not certainly photo 4.

[Detroit58]

The reason I need the images/cabinets slabbed is because the auction houses tell me they need to be slabbed to sell. The common response I get from auction houses presently: 1. We want to get these slabbed at your cost before we sell them. If I bother to ask if the listing is contingent on the encapsulation, they never include that answer in their response. What happens is they stop responding when they realize the graders don’t authenticate or they go ahead and sell it unslabbed under a very vague listing that is doomed to fail. Sometimes they just send it back. 2. Prove it. I thought that is part of why the auctions are taking money as a third party. Is that unprofessional or what? 3. The latest greatest from the wonderful auction houses-We will not confirm or deny it is said player. One of the auction houses told me “don’t show me nothing unless they’re in a uniform.” I apologized to him and sent him a scan of a Bruce Petway snapshot in Detroit Stars uniform with his catchers glove doing pre game warm ups. He hasn’t responded to me since. The reason I want to sell 19th century cabinets is that I am an aging man with a young family. My wife was born a war refugee and is a cancer survivor. Trying to provide my family a better life is the least I can do. If slabbing is worthless, what’s my move eBay? What’s a Gilbert & Bacon Jim O’Rourke worth? I don’t understand with all the money in baseball, how is eBay the move?

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by Detroit58

What’s a Gilbert & Bacon Jim O’Rourke worth?

Hi Shaun - Can you let us know who you think is pictured in each of three cabinets that Phil posted for you?

Do you think that the Gilbert & Bacon cabinet pictures Jim O'Rourke?

[drcy]

I don't know what photos belong to the OP and why he claims they are to be of.

I see two full cabinet cards, but don't know what is the claim about their supposed identity. The Gilbert & Bacon obviously is not of Jim O'Rourke.

[Detroit58]

Sorry for the poor presentation of my case. I’m a new member and I’m not very computer savvy. Another member did me a favor posting the photos. The Gilbert & Bacon, like it or not is Jim O’Rourke. The Montignani is also Orator Jim. The cdv is a Moses Fleetwood Walker cdv I sold in 2018 I used to explain my back story to the member who helped me post the photos. I will be the first to tell you gentleman you are my superiors in the computer world. What brings me to you is I need to know is there a baseball image authenticator?

[Bicem]

Contact member Bmarlowe1

He's extremely good at facial recognition and many AH's respect his opinion. Not sure what his fees are.

But first and more importantly, you need to be open to hearing the truth good or bad. Seems like you are already convinced on your "O'Rourke" photo even though that is clearly not him.

[oldjudge]

Gilbert & Bacon cabinets, as far as I know, only feature Philadelphia teams. Jim O’Rourke would not be on a Gilbert & Bacon cabinet. 100% that is not him. The other cabinet is, in my opinion, extremely unlikely to be O’Rourke, even though the Bridgeport location of the photographer is a plus for your case.

[Detroit58]

Each post clearly represents why there is a need for a third party authenticator. Some posts said clearly him, some said clearly not. I’m not a psychic, but I could of wrote these posts myself. I have a large list of cabinet cards. Some hall of farmers and some players nobody’s heard of. Some of them are uniformed some of them not. We could go through each and every one and guess what, some will say no doubt him and some no doubt not. I’ve done the FBI facial recognition on all of them, so yeah I’m pretty confident. Its not an opinion. Was your comment an opinion?

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Jim O’Rourke is definitely photo 1 and, in my mind, probably but not certainly photo 4.

Jay - FWIW, I did a little Googling and according to SABR, photo 4 is O'Rourke.

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/jim-orourke-2/

[Detroit58]

I didn’t get a chance to reply to the Gilbert & Bacon comment. Gilbert & Bacon were photographers, not baseball card makers. They were photographers of well known 19th century people. Jim O’Rourke was a star baseball player who lived in Bridgeport CT. Not to far from Philadelphia. I imagine he spent some time in Philly not including the numerous road games over a long career. The photographers were at this address from 1886-92 if any cares. The Montignani dates 1888-92. I did the facial recognition on all my images. Try it, you’ll get there. Follow the hairlines. Follow the facial features. The chunk and comb over on the Montignani can be hard to believe, but do the work. It’s him. The comb over is another of his known images. O’Rourke put on weight in his late career. Where did he get the flabby double chin in his late pics? The fact there is an argument over whether 2 known images Orator Jim are him or not makes my point to an exhausted level. Who’s on first?

[rholmes]

Brick wall alert.

[Detroit58]

Here’s my proof. This is Jim O’Rourke. Who disagrees. This is my confidence. I can take criticism if there’s something to critique. How do I authenticate this? Am I the authenticator? If you can’t tell this is Orator Jim, you aren’t the authenticator. All I asked is who authenticates. All anyone had to say is this isn’t Jim O’Rourke. Well?

[Detroit58]

This ain’t about ego. This ain’t about who has the best cards. I have a family to feed.

[drcy]

Neither of the cabinet cards can be authenticated as Jim O'Rourke, as neither are of Jim O'Rourke.

[Detroit58]

Explain

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Auction houses are in business to make money (so I hear) Auction houses LOVE having cool stuff from the early days of baseball (I've been told) Auction houses thrive on publicity of newly discovered items (I'm pretty sure) so what do you think the conspiracy on the part of auction houses against you stems from? Clearly what you claim to have would tick all of the boxes above, so why are auction houses cutting off their noses to spite their faces when it comes to your items?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Detroit58

I didn’t get a chance to reply to the Gilbert & Bacon comment. Gilbert & Bacon were photographers, not baseball card makers. They were photographers of well known 19th century people. Jim O’Rourke was a star baseball player who lived in Bridgeport CT. Not to far from Philadelphia. I imagine he spent some time in Philly not including the numerous road games over a long career. The photographers were at this address from 1886-92 if any cares. The Montignani dates 1888-92. I did the facial recognition on all my images. Try it, you’ll get there. Follow the hairlines. Follow the facial features. The chunk and comb over on the Montignani can be hard to believe, but do the work. It’s him. The comb over is another of his known images. O’Rourke put on weight in his late career. Where did he get the flabby double chin in his late pics? The fact there is an argument over whether 2 known images Orator Jim are him or not makes my point to an exhausted level. Who’s on first?

On the Gilbert and Bacon-
Jay is an expert on 1800's player images, whether they're cards or cabinets.
Of course they took pictures of famous people, as well as thousands of less famous businessmen, tradespeople, and pretty much anyone who saved up the price of having their picture taken.
As has already been pointed out, while there may be approximate similarities in vertical spacing of facial features (And yes, some lines drawn in paint are only approximate... ) The ears are completely different. And different from the later in life pics.
Bmarlowe1 can explain that better, if I'm not mistaken he does a lot with identifying photos for SABR and maybe a few other groups.

On the Montignani -
That's a nice picture, but not O'Rourke.
The subject is wearing a fire department uniform, and as far as I can find out, O'Rourke didn't have involvement with the BFD until the early 1900's, a decade after the photographer stopped doing business.
And at that he was commissioner, not a ordinary member of firehouse 4.

[Detroit58]

To address the ear. Every detail is exactly the same. Appears to be slightly wider in the mid lower portion in mine. How could every detail match, but be wider in a spot you ask? I’ve had this discussion with “experts” in the past. I don’t name drop. I will explain further if you need. We can both agree that the num num Jim head is more face forward. The Gilbert and Bacon’s head is turned more. Evident by half of his mustache to be missing in my photograph. I hope we can agree your ear looks every so slightly smaller or bigger as you turn face towards or away from the the viewer. I’ve had this discussion with the SABR boys in the past on 2 Fleetwood Walker images and a George Davis. I had to explain why the appearance of the ear slightly changes as your head moves. There was dispute of some markings on Davis’ ear in a Sporting Life image to my Davis. I had to explain ad you turn your head detail slowly disappears. I did a case study on the wrinkles on my ear lobe similar to those of Davis. When I looked in the mirror and slightly turned my head,the wrinkles were very quickly no longer visible. I offered to send a video. I don’t know if they learned from me. Everybody I talk to seems to understand that ear appearance slightly changes when your turn your head. Them, no. If you look at side shot of your ear and the front they don’t look like mirror images. With every degree of turn of your head, your ear looks a little different. Understand? I’ve done the leg work as far as it can go on the uniform. Contacted the Bridgeport fire department. It’s not a fire department uniform in any way. Likely fraternal. Are you a photo expert or a uniform expert or both? If anybody wants any back story on any item that I ever show, just ask. You want to know who seen, just ask. If you want to know what the gentlemen of the Bridgeport fire told me, just ask. I can probably forward you the email. You guys have sunk a lot of trust into a few people. It’s not good when a couple control this stuff. Sometimes the have agendas. My 25 year old apprentice gave me some sound advice on the job today. Seems the technology is past the old FBI techniques. They got programs they use for court using shadowing and overlapping. Sharp kid. I’m definitely going to check into it. There’s no doubt to me it will pass. Maybe we can get some authenticating going instead a few guys controlling the market. Have you notice your boys the experts haven’t chimed in yet. I think there at the place the auction houses get to, “We cannot confirm or deny that’s the player.” Unless they want to show their butts.

[Detroit58]

I will speak more on the Montignani when the Gilbert and Bacon points I’ve made have been addressed. For full disclosure the Jim O’Rourke author has seen all O’Rourke including a John O’Rourke Sarony. I don’t name drop. He shared his opinions on the images and believes the uniform is fraternal.

[oldjudge]

“Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”—Mark Twain

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Detroit58

To address the ear. Every detail is exactly the same. Appears to be slightly wider in the mid lower portion in mine. How could every detail match, but be wider in a spot you ask? I’ve had this discussion with “experts” in the past. I don’t name drop. I will explain further if you need. We can both agree that the num num Jim head is more face forward. The Gilbert and Bacon’s head is turned more. Evident by half of his mustache to be missing in my photograph. I hope we can agree your ear looks every so slightly smaller or bigger as you turn face towards or away from the the viewer. I’ve had this discussion with the SABR boys in the past on 2 Fleetwood Walker images and a George Davis. I had to explain why the appearance of the ear slightly changes as your head moves. There was dispute of some markings on Davis’ ear in a Sporting Life image to my Davis. I had to explain ad you turn your head detail slowly disappears. I did a case study on the wrinkles on my ear lobe similar to those of Davis. When I looked in the mirror and slightly turned my head,the wrinkles were very quickly no longer visible. I offered to send a video. I don’t know if they learned from me. Everybody I talk to seems to understand that ear appearance slightly changes when your turn your head. Them, no. If you look at side shot of your ear and the front they don’t look like mirror images. With every degree of turn of your head, your ear looks a little different. Understand? I’ve done the leg work as far as it can go on the uniform. Contacted the Bridgeport fire department. It’s not a fire department uniform in any way. Likely fraternal. Are you a photo expert or a uniform expert or both? If anybody wants any back story on any item that I ever show, just ask. You want to know who seen, just ask. If you want to know what the gentlemen of the Bridgeport fire told me, just ask. I can probably forward you the email. You guys have sunk a lot of trust into a few people. It’s not good when a couple control this stuff. Sometimes the have agendas. My 25 year old apprentice gave me some sound advice on the job today. Seems the technology is past the old FBI techniques. They got programs they use for court using shadowing and overlapping. Sharp kid. I’m definitely going to check into it. There’s no doubt to me it will pass. Maybe we can get some authenticating going instead a few guys controlling the market. Have you notice your boys the experts haven’t chimed in yet. I think there at the place the auction houses get to, “We cannot confirm or deny that’s the player.” Unless they want to show their butts.

In the two known good images you've shown the overall shape of the ear is oval. In the Gilbert and Bacon, it's nearly square. Getting into "details" when there's a glaring difference is nothing more than wishful thinking.

Slight changes with changed angles? Of course. But what's shown is way beyond a slight change. (Trained as a draftsman/machinist in college, and tested extremely well at spatial orientation before training. And have reverse engineered a few things from pictures.)

What makes someone and "expert" in your eyes?
Does 40+ years of experience in a wide variety of collectibles count for anything?
At least two of the people commenting above ARE EXPERTS.
What credentials do YOU have?

You talk big about stuff like "FBI facial recognition, but all you present is a very iffy image created in MS Paint that wouldn't even make a good start at drawing a face in art class.
Now it's some letter supposedly from the BFD.

If you have anything solid to support the claim, post it.
Like- You say the uniform is not fire, but fraternal. To me the buttons look like they have a fire horn in the center, followed by a D. The central figure could also be a stylized F.

But lets go with the assumption that you might be right.
What fraternal organization?
Was O'Rourke ever a member in that organization?
Can you show anything conclusive about that? Like a photo of another member of the same group wearing the same uniform? Or a membership card?

Until there's something solid, it's just typical puffery like on every sketchy ebay listing or iffy antique dealer.