Authenticating 19th century baseball cabinet cards

[Detroit58]

To address the ear. Every detail is exactly the same. Appears to be slightly wider in the mid lower portion in mine. How could every detail match, but be wider in a spot you ask? I’ve had this discussion with “experts” in the past. I don’t name drop. I will explain further if you need. We can both agree that the num num Jim head is more face forward. The Gilbert and Bacon’s head is turned more. Evident by half of his mustache to be missing in my photograph. I hope we can agree your ear looks every so slightly smaller or bigger as you turn face towards or away from the the viewer. I’ve had this discussion with the SABR boys in the past on 2 Fleetwood Walker images and a George Davis. I had to explain why the appearance of the ear slightly changes as your head moves. There was dispute of some markings on Davis’ ear in a Sporting Life image to my Davis. I had to explain ad you turn your head detail slowly disappears. I did a case study on the wrinkles on my ear lobe similar to those of Davis. When I looked in the mirror and slightly turned my head,the wrinkles were very quickly no longer visible. I offered to send a video. I don’t know if they learned from me. Everybody I talk to seems to understand that ear appearance slightly changes when your turn your head. Them, no. If you look at side shot of your ear and the front they don’t look like mirror images. With every degree of turn of your head, your ear looks a little different. Understand? I’ve done the leg work as far as it can go on the uniform. Contacted the Bridgeport fire department. It’s not a fire department uniform in any way. Likely fraternal. Are you a photo expert or a uniform expert or both? If anybody wants any back story on any item that I ever show, just ask. You want to know who seen, just ask. If you want to know what the gentlemen of the Bridgeport fire told me, just ask. I can probably forward you the email. You guys have sunk a lot of trust into a few people. It’s not good when a couple control this stuff. Sometimes the have agendas. My 25 year old apprentice gave me some sound advice on the job today. Seems the technology is past the old FBI techniques. They got programs they use for court using shadowing and overlapping. Sharp kid. I’m definitely going to check into it. There’s no doubt to me it will pass. Maybe we can get some authenticating going instead a few guys controlling the market. Have you notice your boys the experts haven’t chimed in yet. I think there at the place the auction houses get to, “We cannot confirm or deny that’s the player.” Unless they want to show their butts.

[Detroit58]

I will speak more on the Montignani when the Gilbert and Bacon points I’ve made have been addressed. For full disclosure the Jim O’Rourke author has seen all O’Rourke including a John O’Rourke Sarony. I don’t name drop. He shared his opinions on the images and believes the uniform is fraternal.

[oldjudge]

“Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”—Mark Twain

[Detroit58]

“Hi you” …1980’s. Phrase made a comeback though for a minute there.

[Detroit58]

Who is the smart guy in your group. None of you respond, just criticize. Where’s the king Marlowe. What’s he got to say about me ear point since every speaks for him. Does he exist? Is he like the wizard of oz hiding behind the curtain? He’s a SABR guy right? Them guys need some seasoning. They been looking at there own stuff to long. Stagnant. I just want to know who authenticates. I can list pics forever. You be amazed, every single one passes FBI technique.
Some of them are in uniform. But it’s not them right?

[Detroit58]

SABR looks at your stuff. Picks the ones they think are not correctly identified and tell you “it’s absolutely not him.” Then you ask, “what about the other ones”(the obvious no doubters) and you get nothing but tumbleweeds. If your fortunate to get an explanation of why “it’s absolutely not him” they just may show they’re butt to the world and then decide it’s not worth looking at your stuff anymore. Don’t want to mess with the cash cow right fellas?

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by Detroit58

SABR looks at your stuff. Picks the ones they think are not correctly identified and tell you “it’s absolutely not him.” Then you ask, “what about the other ones”(the obvious no doubters) and you get nothing but tumbleweeds. If your fortunate to get an explanation of why “it’s absolutely not him” they just may show they’re butt to the world and then decide it’s not worth looking at your stuff anymore. Don’t want to mess with the cash cow right fellas?

Out of curiosity, how much does SABR charge for their opinion?

[CobbSpikedMe]

I can see how facial features change a little when the face changes angles, but they don't completely change the look of the feature. I have to disagree that "every detail is exactly the same". That's a bit of a stretch.

I'm not an expert in photo identification and not an expert in 19th century baseball players, so Yes, I'm going to let the few experts on the board do all the talking here. (well, except for what I'm doing now of course ). You supposedly came here to hear their opinions and get their feedback as well.

This happens every few months on the board. Someone will come on and solicit the advice/opinion of the experts (which the OP usually acknowledges know more than they do about the topic) and are, in fact, subject matter experts. Then when the OP doesn't get the feedback they want they get all upset and claim the people on the board are all high and mighty.

The fact is, you're getting the advice from the recognized experts in this era of baseball and they are telling you the images you have are not O'Rourke. I'm sorry you aren't being validated in all the background diligence you performed and it's upsetting you a bit, but these guys aren't throwing around their egos and putting you down. They are giving you an honest critique of the images provided.

Best of luck finding folks that will authenticate your images as the players you want them to be.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Detroit58

To address the ear. Every detail is exactly the same. Appears to be slightly wider in the mid lower portion in mine. How could every detail match, but be wider in a spot you ask? I’ve had this discussion with “experts” in the past. I don’t name drop. I will explain further if you need. We can both agree that the num num Jim head is more face forward. The Gilbert and Bacon’s head is turned more. Evident by half of his mustache to be missing in my photograph. I hope we can agree your ear looks every so slightly smaller or bigger as you turn face towards or away from the the viewer. I’ve had this discussion with the SABR boys in the past on 2 Fleetwood Walker images and a George Davis. I had to explain why the appearance of the ear slightly changes as your head moves. There was dispute of some markings on Davis’ ear in a Sporting Life image to my Davis. I had to explain ad you turn your head detail slowly disappears. I did a case study on the wrinkles on my ear lobe similar to those of Davis. When I looked in the mirror and slightly turned my head,the wrinkles were very quickly no longer visible. I offered to send a video. I don’t know if they learned from me. Everybody I talk to seems to understand that ear appearance slightly changes when your turn your head. Them, no. If you look at side shot of your ear and the front they don’t look like mirror images. With every degree of turn of your head, your ear looks a little different. Understand? I’ve done the leg work as far as it can go on the uniform. Contacted the Bridgeport fire department. It’s not a fire department uniform in any way. Likely fraternal. Are you a photo expert or a uniform expert or both? If anybody wants any back story on any item that I ever show, just ask. You want to know who seen, just ask. If you want to know what the gentlemen of the Bridgeport fire told me, just ask. I can probably forward you the email. You guys have sunk a lot of trust into a few people. It’s not good when a couple control this stuff. Sometimes the have agendas. My 25 year old apprentice gave me some sound advice on the job today. Seems the technology is past the old FBI techniques. They got programs they use for court using shadowing and overlapping. Sharp kid. I’m definitely going to check into it. There’s no doubt to me it will pass. Maybe we can get some authenticating going instead a few guys controlling the market. Have you notice your boys the experts haven’t chimed in yet. I think there at the place the auction houses get to, “We cannot confirm or deny that’s the player.” Unless they want to show their butts.

In the two known good images you've shown the overall shape of the ear is oval. In the Gilbert and Bacon, it's nearly square. Getting into "details" when there's a glaring difference is nothing more than wishful thinking.

Slight changes with changed angles? Of course. But what's shown is way beyond a slight change. (Trained as a draftsman/machinist in college, and tested extremely well at spatial orientation before training. And have reverse engineered a few things from pictures.)

What makes someone and "expert" in your eyes?
Does 40+ years of experience in a wide variety of collectibles count for anything?
At least two of the people commenting above ARE EXPERTS.
What credentials do YOU have?

You talk big about stuff like "FBI facial recognition, but all you present is a very iffy image created in MS Paint that wouldn't even make a good start at drawing a face in art class.
Now it's some letter supposedly from the BFD.

If you have anything solid to support the claim, post it.
Like- You say the uniform is not fire, but fraternal. To me the buttons look like they have a fire horn in the center, followed by a D. The central figure could also be a stylized F.

But lets go with the assumption that you might be right.
What fraternal organization?
Was O'Rourke ever a member in that organization?
Can you show anything conclusive about that? Like a photo of another member of the same group wearing the same uniform? Or a membership card?

Until there's something solid, it's just typical puffery like on every sketchy ebay listing or iffy antique dealer.