T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Here is the other wider AB that I have, this one of Street catching. As a bonus, there is a remnant of another card on the back, and I have determined that card to be Griffith batting.

Brian

Brian...."Correctomundo"....to quote Fonzie from Happy Days,
It's a remnant from the Griffith (batting) card.

Thanks for posting your Street card.



TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

.
.... Sweet Caporal ...... Sovereign ......... Piedmont___The "House" that created these Tobacco cards___American Beauty ... COUPON ...…...... UZIT


This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman
so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)].

Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?
This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363
meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, this thread was...."the beginning of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca).

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11


Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the
theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints.

So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here.

And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

INDEX

Set your user settings to display 50 posts per Page. Then click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted.

Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters.

Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints"

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's !

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs"

Post #96.....UZIT checklist

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist

Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ?

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's

Posts #231 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Posts #263 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects......

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist

Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005

Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey

Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure

Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards

Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns of the T206's and T205's

Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set

Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set

Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set

Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set

Posts #481 >> 515.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"

Posts #516 >> 536....."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards

Posts #537 >> 551.....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ?

Posts #553 >> 554.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #561 >> 570.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #571 >> 572.....FYI: 350 Series Minor Leaguer's checklist and trivia

Posts #573 >> 573.....T206 Southern League cards illustrated

Posts #574 >> 579.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one !

Posts #580 >> 597.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?

Posts #598 >> 600.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #601 >> 603.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #605 >> 621.....the TOLSTOI story

Posts #622 >> 623.....Meet me at Philly, we can Talk T206's

Posts #624 >> 635.....CYCLE 460 checklist

Posts #636 >> 650.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #651 >> 664.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #665 >> 669.....UPGRADING T206 cards

Posts #671 >> 674.....And then, there are times to down-grade your T206's

Posts #675 >> 692.....Black LENOX checklist

Posts #693 >> 697.....Check-out Jamie B's multi-brand T206 card

Posts #698 >> 700.....Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back

Posts #701 >> 713.....Reprising the Ty Cobb / TY COBB card debate

Posts #714 >> 726.....CYCLE 350 checklist..... where have all the CYCLE 350 cards gone ?

Posts #727 >> 741.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat)..... Post your inputs and/or cards

Posts #742 >> 750.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them

Posts #751 >> 760.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them

Posts #761 >> 800.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Posts #801 >> 823.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Posts #824 >> 832.....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards

Posts #833 >> 850.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here

Posts #851 >> 853.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here

Posts #854 >> 883.....What backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ?

Posts #884 >> 900.....Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS

Posts #901 >> 916.....Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS

Posts #917 >> 944.....MISSION (99%) ACCOMPLISHED American Beauty 460 run. Show your favorite run

Posts #945 >> 950.....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

Posts #951 >> 961.....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

Posts #962 >> 984.....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)

Posts #985 >> 1000....... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

Posts #1001 >> 1002..... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

Posts #1004 >> 1034.....Reminiscing about your 1st BB card Show where you acquired T206's

Posts #1035 >> 1050.....Show T206's with same name on top or different player's name on top

Posts #1051 >> 1066.....Show T206's with same name on top or different player's name on top

Posts #1068 >> 1070.....Imagine the T206 guys come alive, great read about the 1904 season

Posts #1071 >> 1086....."pet peeves" regarding certain T206's...and tell us of your's ?

Posts #1087 >> 1100.....Unique Antique CAR(ds).....Show us your "One of a Kind" T206(s)

Posts #1101 >> 1150.....Unique Antique CAR(ds).....Show us your "One of a Kind" T206(s)

Posts #1151 >> 1160.....Unique Antique CAR(ds).....Show us your "One of a Kind" T206(s)

Posts #1161 >> 1193.....ATC's "signature" white-border T-card. Post your favorite Red Cobb

Posts #1194 >> 1198.....Questionable action poses on certain T206's. Show us a questionable pose

Posts #1199 >> 1200....."You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave"

Posts #1201 >> 1207....."You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave"

Posts #1208 >> 1213.....Revisiting the 150-only Series.....and, let's see your cards

Posts #1214 >> 1225.....The "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card survey (Updated)

Posts #1226 >> 1237.....The "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card and related subjects

Posts #1238 >> 1250....."fat" AMERICAN BEAUTY cards....If you have any, let's see them

Posts #1251 >> 1262....."fat" AMERICAN BEAUTY cards....If you have any, let's see them

Posts #1263 >> 1281.....T206-like T209 (CONTENTNEA) 1st series....show us your T209 cards

Posts #1283 >> 1294.....TRIVIA....Iffy call cost Team the Pennant. Who's the T206 player involved ?

Posts #1295 >> 1300.....Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff

Posts #1301 >> 1302.....Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff

Post #1303....................INDEX

Posts #1305 >> 1320.....Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me with your question.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[tedzan]

This AB 350 of "Kid" Elberfeld is another "fat" one (1 15/32 inches wide). I'm finding more of these "fat" AB's than
I thought I had in my AMERICAN BEAUTY collection.

Hey guys
I'm still waiting for some one to chime in and explain (theories are welcomed) why American Lithographic cut these
AB cards narrower than the standard size T206's.


--


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


........ Piedmont ......... Sovereign ....... Sweet Caporal___The "House" that created these Tobacco cards____POLAR BEAR .......... Hindu ....... American Beauty


I've said this before, and I'll say it again......I do NOT understand how Grading Company's (PSA, SGC, etc.) grade T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY cards with an "A".

Take for example this Jennings card. I acquired this beauty many years ago. Because of the A grade on it, I purchased it for a very reasonable price.





However, over the years, I felt it should have received a NUMERIC grade. So a few years ago, when SGC was still situated in New Jersey, I carefully cracked it out
of its plastic capsule and drove an hour to SGC and submitted this raw card to be graded (again).

------

My expectations were realized. About an hour later, this was the result Somewhere, sometime there is justice in this world




TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


........ Piedmont ......... Sovereign ....... Sweet Caporal___The "House" that created these Tobacco cards____POLAR BEAR .......... Hindu ....... American Beauty


I've said this before, and I'll say it again......I do NOT understand how Grading Company's (PSA, SGC, etc.) grade T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY cards with an "A".

Take for example this Jennings card. I acquired this beauty many years ago. Because of the A grade on it, I purchased it for a very reasonable price.





However, over the years, I felt it should have received a NUMERIC grade. So a few years ago, when SGC was still situated in New Jersey, I carefully cracked it out
of its plastic capsule and drove an hour to SGC and submitted this raw card to be graded (again).

------

My expectations were realized. About an hour later, this was the result Somewhere, sometime there is justice in this world




TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

And now the same card resides in a PSA holder

Jennings AB.jpg

[tedzan]

What is your point, Pat ?

This is nothing new. I have already noted (in another thread recently) that I eventually sold this Jennings card to David Hall at the National.

And of course, David had it re-graded by PSA.



TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

What is your point, Pat ?

This is nothing new. I have already noted (in another thread recently) that I eventually sold this Jennings card to David Hall at the National.

And of course, David had it re-graded by PSA.



TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

The point is this is how the pop reports get skewed especially on the lower pop cards. This Jennings has now been in three different holders. The SGC
pop report lists 3 different Jennings one hand American Beauty's when actually there's only one.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


........ Piedmont ......... Sovereign ....... Sweet Caporal___The "House" that created these Tobacco cards____POLAR BEAR .......... Hindu ....... American Beauty


Apparently, we've run out of "fat" AMERICAN BEAUTY (AB) cards. So, let's begin with the "thin". My skinniest is an AB 460 Chance, whose width is a narrow 1 1/4 inches.
And, of course (as I mentioned before) you'll find all these "skinny" T206 cards in the AB 460 group.






These four are also less than the usual AB width of 1 3/8 inches. These are precisely 1 5/16 inches.





TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


........ Piedmont ......... Sovereign ....... Sweet Caporal___The "House" that created these Tobacco cards____POLAR BEAR .......... Hindu ....... American Beauty


Chase (trophy) is on of my favorite cards in the 460-only Series. This card's width conforms exactly to the AMERICAN BEAUTY standard cut. Most of them, that I have seen,
are less than 1 3/8inches.

Fat or thin, show us your AMERICAN BEAUTIES.

.
^---------------- 1 5/8 " ----------------^ . . . ^----------------- 1 3/8 " -----------------^





TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[tedzan]

These colorful T209-1 cards remind me of T206's. Needless to say, they are quite rare. And this is probably why I enjoy the challenge in finding them.
Also, I prefer the blue lettering in their captions. The blue ink is more distinct than the brown captions on the T206's.

And I have to thank Leon for providing me four of these T209 cards approx. 10 years ago....which completed my set.

Some catalogues date them as a 1910 issue. However, research indicates these cards may have been issued in late 1909. Net54 members, Mike Peich
and Tim Newcomb have done some outstanding research on this set, and you can read all about it in.... https://t209-contentnea.com/t209-overview/







Hoffman is my favorite in the set.

. .


I have said enough for now.....therefore, show us some of your T209 cards.

TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[tedzan]

OK, carrying on......shown here is a sampling of the T209-2 CONTENTNEA cards. These B/W photo-type cards were issued in 1910, and a
complete set consists of 222 subjects.

You old-timers will find this story interesting. Some years ago Mike Peich called me regarding a bunch of T209-2 cards that he knew I had.
Since we both live in Pennsylvania, we decided on a meeting place mid-way between our residences. And sure enough it was Willow Grove.
Remember the Marriott Hotel on Rte. 611....that's where we did our deal and for 2 hours (or more) reminiscing about the good ole days at
the famous Willow Grove BB card Show.

T209-1 cards



Furthermore, note that the T209-2 cards have the standard bottom line for Federal Tobacco Tax purposes.
On the other hand, the T209-1 cards were not printed with it. So, employees at the Factory (Wilson, NC)
hand stamped the bottom line information on the backs of these cards. Anyhow, many of these cards are
missing this stamp.

T209-1 backs




I'm still waiting to see your pretty looking T209-1 cards. I think the color printing quality of these 16 cards is a tad better than the T206's.

What's your opinion ?


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[ValKehl]

[QUOTE=tedzan;2111012]These colorful T209-1 cards remind me of T206's. Needless to say, they are very rare. And, this is probably why I enjoy the challenge in finding them./QUOTE]

Ted, congrats for having completed this T209-1 set of 16 cards. But I am curious as to why you say "they are very rare." The combined PSA & SGC pop reports show a total of 495 T209-1 cards graded, with the least number graded being 24 each for Cooper & Gilmore. As we know, there are many pre-War cards for which only one, two, or three examples are known to exist. How do you describe these cards? IMHO, T209-1s are scarce or perhaps even quite scarce, but not rare.

[tedzan]

Hi Val

I'm surprised that the population reports list that many T209-1 cards. Anyhow, the synonym for "scarce" is "rare".
So, I'll modify my comment to say "quite rare"

I completed this set 10 years ago. And like Ringo Starr once sang...."It Don't Come Easy".

At BB card shows you seldom see them (and this is so, even at the National).

After all these years, I recently upgraded my Hoffman card. I have a few more that need up-grading.

I'll leave you by asking you this: Have you tried putting together this set of 16 cards ?


.


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[ValKehl]

Ted, thanks for the enlightenment. I have long thought that rare meant scarcer than scarce.

No Ted, I have never tried to put together a T209-1 set, as I am not a set collector, with one exception, that being the 1925 Holland Creameries set of 18 cards.