Postwar Vintage vs Modern ?

[G1911]

The 1980 cutoff makes no sense to me outside of a calendar. I think there are 3 reasonable lines one could draw:

Pre-1974 - the end of Topps issues by series and the beginning of the 'modern' hobby starting to emerge where cards had some value outside of a few pre-war ones.

Pre-1981 - the end of the Topps monopoly.

Pre-1988/1989 - When mainstream generally-issued cards grew more advanced and objectively of higher quality (which doesn't mean overall better). 1989 Upper Deck is the famous peak of this shift, but 1988 Score was a big step up in quality over 87 Donruss/Fleer/Topps and does not get enough credit these days.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by G1911

The 1980 cutoff makes no sense to me outside of a calendar. I think there are 3 reasonable lines one could draw:

Pre-1974 - the end of Topps issues by series and the beginning of the 'modern' hobby starting to emerge where cards had some value outside of a few pre-war ones.

Pre-1981 - the end of the Topps monopoly.

Pre-1988/1989 - When mainstream generally-issued cards grew more advanced and objectively of higher quality (which doesn't mean overall better). 1989 Upper Deck is the famous peak of this shift, but 1988 Score was a big step up in quality over 87 Donruss/Fleer/Topps and does not get enough credit these days.

The 1980 cutoff is as you say, the last set of the Topps monopoly. It makes sense both from a calendar and hobby perspective.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

The 1980 cutoff is as you say, the last set of the Topps monopoly. It makes sense both from a calendar and hobby perspective.

1980 as the last year makes sense, not "pre-1980", which groups up through 1979, and counts the 1980 Topps set, when they still had a monopoly, as the first year of modern. It does not make sense from a hobby perspective.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by G1911

1980 as the last year makes sense, not "pre-1980", which groups up through 1979, and counts the 1980 Topps set, when they still had a monopoly, as the first year of modern. It does not make sense from a hobby perspective.

"1980 and earlier" is how I should have termed it. I would consider '80 itself vintage.

[gustomania]

Great conversation

I’m kinda like the idea of pre-81 for me (yes a little shift from earlier statements).

When I look at the Henderson, Ryan and others it feels vintage to me.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by G1911

The 1980 cutoff makes no sense to me outside of a calendar. I think there are 3 reasonable lines one could draw:

Pre-1974 - the end of Topps issues by series and the beginning of the 'modern' hobby starting to emerge where cards had some value outside of a few pre-war ones.

Pre-1981 - the end of the Topps monopoly.

Pre-1988/1989 - When mainstream generally-issued cards grew more advanced and objectively of higher quality (which doesn't mean overall better). 1989 Upper Deck is the famous peak of this shift, but 1988 Score was a big step up in quality over 87 Donruss/Fleer/Topps and does not get enough credit these days.

Greg, upon reading this thread, I was about to type essentially what you did. That sums it up perfectly. Which of the three lines one draws is purely generational. For me, it's always been the end of the Topps monopoly. For those older than me, it would most likely be pre-'74, and for those younger than me it is probably marked by the arrival of Upper Deck in '89.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy

Greg, upon reading this thread, I was about to type essentially what you did. That sums it up perfectly. Which of the three lines one draws is purely generational. For me, it's always been the end of the Topps monopoly. For those older than me, it would most likely be pre-'74, and for those younger than me it is probably marked by the arrival of Upper Deck in '89.

In my head, it's pre-1974, but I think that might be because I think the late 70's issues are a bit bland and want to have a good reason to end my set building at 1973. It seems to me there should be multiple era's, if it was up to me I would split up hobby history as:

1850's-1886 - The beginning of the hobby, CDV and then cabinet domination that would continue for some years after but whose domination was supplanted by small tobacco inserts.

1887-1907 - The origins of the modern conception of a set of cards, peak of 1888-1890 and the sustained minor issues that kept cards a thing but not common.

1908-1912 - The Tobacco and caramel peak of pre-war before regulation ended commonly available cards as a constant.

1913-1931 - The hobby goes back to something generally small and irregular, major reduction in objective quality of available cards.

1932-1941 - The resurgence of commonly available cards of quality and bubble gum cards.

1942-1947 - Might as well not exist, really.

1948-1956 - The evolution and competition of post-war, laying the landscape.

1957-1973 - The classic Topps series era of monopoly

1974-1980 - The inter period, a hobby footnote really.

1981-1987/1988 - The era of competition and new ideas beginning that would lead to radical changes.

1988/1989-1998 - The upgrade in quality of cards and the beginning of chase cards that would end the hobby of children.

1999-present- The end of cards being for kids at all, the advent of relics and autographs being inserted at rates that made pulling one realistic and leading to the dominance of relatively wealthy adults and investors over 95% of the hobby

[Tere1071]

Originally Posted by G1911

In my head, it's pre-1974, but I think that might be because I think the late 70's issues are a bit bland and want to have a good reason to end my set building at 1973. It seems to me there should be multiple era's, if it was up to me I would split up hobby history as:

1850's-1886 - The beginning of the hobby, CDV and then cabinet domination that would continue for some years after but whose domination was supplanted by small tobacco inserts.

1887-1907 - The origins of the modern conception of a set of cards, peak of 1888-1890 and the sustained minor issues that kept cards a thing but not common.

1908-1912 - The Tobacco and caramel peak of pre-war before regulation ended commonly available cards as a constant.

1913-1931 - The hobby goes back to something generally small and irregular, major reduction in objective quality of available cards.

1932-1941 - The resurgence of commonly available cards of quality and bubble gum cards.

1942-1947 - Might as well not exist, really.

1948-1956 - The evolution and competition of post-war, laying the landscape.

1957-1973 - The classic Topps series era of monopoly

1974-1980 - The inter period, a hobby footnote really.

1981-1987/1988 - The era of competition and new ideas beginning that would lead to radical changes.

1988/1989-1998 - The upgrade in quality of cards and the beginning of chase cards that would end the hobby of children.

1999-present- The end of cards being for kids at all, the advent of relics and autographs being inserted at rates that made pulling one realistic and leading to the dominance of relatively wealthy adults and investors over 95% of the hobby

I think this is a very clear, concise description of our hobby. Thank you.

[tonyo]

Originally Posted by G1911

Pre-1988/1989 - When mainstream generally-issued cards grew more advanced and objectively of higher quality (which doesn't mean overall better). 1989 Upper Deck is the famous peak of this shift, but 1988 Score was a big step up in quality over 87 Donruss/Fleer/Topps and does not get enough credit these days.

Fun thread.....

I vote for a shift in card style which occurred "mostly" around the 89 ud as noted .

I seem to recall that 89 ud was the first pack of cards I ever saw that cost $1. That felt like a threshold to me even back then. Also, it was close to the first set with multi colored photos on the back. Someone mentioned 88 score which I do believe had full colored photos on the back, and I did like those cards as well,

but to me something about the 89ud combination of $1 per pack, multicolored photos, and the cardstock didn't feel like classic "baseball card" cardstock. It ushered in the 90's and "shiny stuff"

A small handful of sets held onto the relatively drab back design in the early 90's, but I definitely feel like early 90's when multicolored backs and improved cardstock became the norm it truly ushered in "modern" and left "vintage" in the rearview.


It's hard to believe that was 30 years ago

[todeen]

Originally Posted by tonyo

It's hard to believe that was 30 years ago

Ditto

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[ASF123]

It ushered in the 90's and "shiny stuff"

Literally, with the holograms.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by tonyo

Fun thread.....

I vote for a shift in card style which occurred "mostly" around the 89 ud as noted .

I seem to recall that 89 ud was the first pack of cards I ever saw that cost $1. That felt like a threshold to me even back then. Also, it was close to the first set with multi colored photos on the back. Someone mentioned 88 score which I do believe had full colored photos on the back, and I did like those cards as well,

but to me something about the 89ud combination of $1 per pack, multicolored photos, and the cardstock didn't feel like classic "baseball card" cardstock. It ushered in the 90's and "shiny stuff"

A small handful of sets held onto the relatively drab back design in the early 90's, but I definitely feel like early 90's when multicolored backs and improved cardstock became the norm it truly ushered in "modern" and left "vintage" in the rearview.


It's hard to believe that was 30 years ago

I like both the early Score and UD issues. Upper Deck was a little more premium with the hologram, but 1988 Score had full color back photos as well and I think was the first to do so (1971 Topps was the first mainstream set with a back photo at all that I can think of). Sportflics deserves a mention in this process of quality upgrading (I think they had color backs too), as do the Mothers cookies sets, but Score brought a much more premium 'base card' first in 1988, and then Upper Deck refined it in 1989 and upped the cost significantly. The common narrative that Upper Deck came in and trounced the Fleer/Donruss/Topps sets is really leaving a lot out and ignoring the other top manufacturer. Score was quite popular in 1988 and had an outlandish print run similar to the others.

What surprises me is that Fleer did not step up the quality of their base set until 1992 (Ultra in 1991), Donruss until 1992 (Leaf in 1991 I think was their first premium line), Topps until 1993 (first premium release was 91 Stadium Club, going off memory again). All 3 of the "veteran" mainstream makers completely ignored the superior quality of their upstart competitors that performed well until 1991, 3 full years before choosing to compete in the emerging "quality" market.

Stadium Clubs are my personal favorite of the early "premium" sets.