Breaking News - Cleveland Indians

[ASF123]

The team became known as the "Indians" unofficially the entire year. They sold out to packed stadiums with crowds outside trying to scalp tickets!

Perhaps a poor choice of words at the end there...

[Bobbycee]

Originally Posted by hammertime

Beat me to it. Several years ago the Washington Post pushed hard to get the Redskins to change their name, but they finally gave up after a poll found very few Natives were offended by the term. Of course flash forward to last year and they started up again, and were successful this time.

Personally I don't care strongly one way or another, names change over time. But we should at least be honest about who we're really appeasing...it's largely white progressives.

Nailed it!

[Bobbycee]

Originally Posted by rats60

If it gets rid of the tomahawk chop, that would be a good thing.

Cleveland's nickname is dumb. An Indian is a person from India, not a Native American. Also, the team wasn't named to honor a former player. That myth has been debunked.

Columbus may have failed at Math, but why should we perpetuate his ignorance? The Greeks had proven the Earth was round by the 6th century BC. They had discovered the Earth's circumference by the 2nd century BC. If the Italian's were so enlightened, why wasn't this well known in Italy in the 15th century AD?

I'm dizzy from shaking my head over this tripe. You do know Columbus sailed for the King & Queen Spain right? It had nothing to do with proving the Earth was round. Most living people can't come close to having the stones that Columbus did.

[packs]

It would be pretty cool if they were the Naps again. Drum up some interest in old time pre-war baseball.

[baseball tourist]

Originally Posted by Mark17

The whole thing is dumb. But if they are going to change the name, why not Cleveland Native Americans? Montreal Canadians is okay, isn't it?

The Montreal NHL team isn’t the Canadians, they are the Canadiens


French Canadians (also referred to as Canadiens; French: Canadiens français, pronounced [kanadjɛ̃ fʁɑ̃sɛ]; feminine form: Canadiennes françaises, pronounced [kanadjɛn fʁɑ̃sɛz]), or Franco-Canadians (French: Franco-Canadiens), are an ethnic group who trace their ancestry to French colonists who settled in Canada from the 17th century onward. Today, people of French heritage make up the majority of native speakers of French in Canada, who in turn account for about 22 per cent of the country's total population.

[prewarsports]

Actually, that is exactly what I meant, it is believed that is the first time the term "ticket scalping" was widely used in baseball, when people were charging extra to see Sockalexis play (although it was surely used before that).

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by hammertime

Personally I don't care strongly one way or another, names change over time. But we should at least be honest about who we're really appeasing...it's largely white progressives.

Post of the year.

[luciobar1980]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

While I agree that the name “Indians” is not in of itself racist, that is not the full history of the nickname. The problem is really Chief Wahoo and that cannot be totally undone by simply dropping the logo. Let’s stop pretending that the name was an honor for the last 100 years. If the name was meant to be an honor they would not have picked an incredibly racist image to wear on their sleeves. The logo was dehumanizing and mean. It was based on stereotype.

I think that many people also have never been taught the actual history of what the county did to native Americans. I am not talking about treaties in the 1830’s or the trail of tears. I am talking about taking children from their parents without consent and either sending them to schools or adoptive white parents to “take the Indian out of them.” This is a practice that continued until the 1970’s. This is practice that is easier to justify when the common culture mocks what it means to be Indian.

Finally I am not saying that all Native names have to be changed. They can be an honor. Look at the Florida Seminoles. For all of that programs other problems they have done a great job working with the Seminole tribe to have actual historical context and celebration of the culture.

Well said.

[luciobar1980]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

After killing most of these people off, and then relegating the remaining ones to horrible reservations, I think we've earned the right to use cartoon images of them as mascots for sports teams. They should probably be honored. Just like all the other races that are reflected on sport teams' uniforms and hats.

I'm pretty sure this is sarcasm. Please confirm!

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

Actually, that is exactly what I meant, it is believed that is the first time the term "ticket scalping" was widely used in baseball, when people were charging extra to see Sockalexis play (although it was surely used before that).

Huh. Didn't know that. That doesn't exactly support the "it was a tribute, and not at all a racist caricature" argument, does it?

[Tao_Moko]

Originally Posted by JustinD

This is incorrect, I would say all of the older franchise names have deeper meaning (many from their original locations of origin). The Detroit Tigers were named as a tribute to the Civil War Brigade for Detroit, "The Tigers". The original name of the Wolverines was never official. The Portmouth Spartans were relocated to Detroit and were renamed the Lions as a tribute to the popular sports team in the city...The Tigers. It was a theme.

The Bears were again a young franchise named to reflect the popularity of the other popular team of the city and continue a theme as well...The Cubs. They were previously the Decatur Staleys and named after a starch company that owned them. Not exactly a catchy name.

My great grandfather played for the Decatur Staleys and that was a sense of pride because he also worked at A.E. Staley Manufacturing and raised on a soy farm who supplied the plant. He unfortunately missed the most important year of their teams history and continued to play on what was more of a club after the Halas team moved up. The history I grew up with was that "Da Bears" were a continued theme playing off of the massively popular baseball franchise as you mention above.

[pclpads]

I guess the owners of the storied Cleveland Browns franchise will be next to follow suit. Brown - while not explicitly a racist term, but a color - still could be judged by the PC crowd as targeting people of a certain skin color. Where does this madness end?

[Hirbonzig]

Throw out the good and bring in the bad like the “Cleveland Rocks”. Cleveland may go through a few name changes to settle on one the remaining fans like.

[nolemmings]

Not entirely true. Lajoie did not jump to the Federal League, putting his team in a bad spot. He was traded to the Philadelphia A's after a poor season. The owner was not caught off guard. It is possible and perhaps likely the team remained the Naps out of deference to Lajoie even after his skills had waned, but they had been called by other nicknames after Sockalexis had gone.

Originally Posted by prewarsports

If you study Sockalexis, it is 100% not a myth and completely true, but you have to understand the context to get how the timeline works. It had nothing to do with honoring his death and it drives me crazy when people say "he died in 1913 and the team changed names in 1915, therefore its a myth."

In a short summation, the Cleveland franchise had a buzz when Sockalexis came up that is impossible to understand today. The story of how he got to Cleveland is even better but I wont go there. It was a Lebron in high school thing, or Jeremy "Linsanity" on a national level, but MORE because baseball was the only sport people cared about. Every team wanted him, everyone knew he was the most talented player in the nation (college or pro at the time) and when Cleveland got him, it was a HUGE national event. For that summer of 1896, Cleveland was the center of the baseball world and it was EXCITING. Reporters came from Europe to do stories on him and his exploits were front page news. The team became known as the "Indians" unofficially the entire year. They sold out to packed stadiums with crowds outside trying to "scalp" tickets!

Fast forward twenty years later, they were the "Naps" and then their leader jumped to the Federal League. Cleveland was in a bad spot and wanted to regain something to be proud of, recapture some sort of buzz about the team again. It was at this time they decided to harken back to the "Indians", back when it was fun and exciting to be a Cleveland baseball fan. It was a nod to Sockalexis' time in Cleveland, but not a direct naming of the franchise after him, which is where people get misguided.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by pclpads

I guess the owners of the storied Cleveland Browns franchise will be next to follow suit. Brown - while not explicitly a racist term, but a color - still could be judged by the PC crowd as targeting people of a certain skin color. Where does this madness end?

That's the point that troubles most sane people.... where will it ever end?? If "progressives" say tomorrow that the whole country was built on hate and they refuse to accept it, who will stop them from tearing it down and destroying literally everything. It's these sanctimonious individuals that are BY FAR the biggest threat to our society, not a ridiculous name or two.

[baseball tourist]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this and any other topic of course, but please don’t make the mistake in thinking that by being a Cleveland supporter, or baseball fan, or knowing someone who is of Native American heritage makes your opinion count.

The owners of the team have consulted with their communities and what they have decided to do, counts. Not what you or I believe. We don’t get a vote.

[drcy]

My dad went to the University of Minnesota, and I'd tease him about the gopher mascot. "Why couldn't it be something tough, like the Badgers or the Wolverines? Heck, even a woodchuck is bigger."

[sbfinley]

My only complaint is that the cries after something is “cancelled” are as annoying as the cries to cancel it. Is it really a super duper offensive team name? Probably not. Is it really another step in the destruction and wussification of Western civilization, freedom, democracy, American ingenuity, and Apple pie? Yeah probably not either.

Are they playing baseball? Cool, I’m watching. Nothing changes.

[Casey2296]

The Team I root for, the SF Giants (no offense to people who suffer from Gigantism) have been virtue signaling to appease the woke crowd for some time now, they have all the bases covered when it comes to being "progressive".

Doesn't bother me, I just wish they would also cover the most important base and field a winning Team, which they seemed to have put on the bottom of the list of priorities.

[t206fix]

Really? Is this a progressive issue? I would think it's more about human decency. I'm not your mascot.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by t206fix

Really? Is this a progressive issue? I would think it's more about human decency. I'm not your mascot.

Is this a reply to my comment?

[Tao_Moko]

At the end of the day - why offend if it's entirely unnecessary. Ohio is now the official birthplace of aviation and many other industries. There's plenty of other content to pull from too. Cleveland Aviators has tons of marketing potential.

[baseball tourist]

[The term Indian is not offensive at all [/QUOTE]

It’s not offensive to you perhaps. But if you read the team’s statement, it is clearly so to a number of indigenous people they consider community stakeholders. That is what matters.

[Malibu39]

Chuckle...
I suggest the #ClevelandIndians rename themselves the #Cleveland Virtue Signallers and their mascot can be a genderless human in a onesie
#Woke

[baseball tourist]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

Post of the year.

Incorrect. If you read the team’s release, this is being done to appease several indigenous stakeholder communities.

[Throttlesteer]

Originally Posted by t206fix

Really? Is this a progressive issue? I would think it's more about human decency. I'm not your mascot.

So Yankees should go based on your perspective.

[perezfan]

Fracking is another big industry in Ohio. The Cleveland Frackers has a pretty nice ring to it, but might it be construed as offensive?

[campyfan39]

Respectfully submitted: There are so many things that "offend" all of us in this world but most of us just go on with our lives and let others do the same; understanding that we will never agree on everything. I think if this were done in another year we could give it more consideration etc. but 2020 has been a year of extremes in so many ways it just seems reactionary. (yes I know its been discussed for a while)

What is next? Braves? Chiefs? Tar Heels? Warriors? Yankees? Mountaineers? Seminoles? Ole Miss Rebels? Utes? Blackhawks? Colonials? Orangemen? Cowboys? Illini? Aztecs? Tribe? etc. Thats just off the top of my head

Originally Posted by Tao_Moko

At the end of the day - why offend if it's entirely unnecessary. Ohio is now the official birthplace of aviation and many other industries. There's plenty of other content to pull from too. Cleveland Aviators has tons of marketing potential.

[t206fix]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer

So Yankees should go based on your perspective.

So, when you fill out an application, you mark Yankee?

[BobbyStrawberry]

For many posts on this thread, I can't tell whether or not sarcasm is intended.

[campyfan39]

Do you mark Indian? I didn't know that was a choice

Originally Posted by t206fix

So, when you fill out an application, you mark Yankee?

[Throttlesteer]

Originally Posted by t206fix

So, when you fill out an application, you mark Yankee?

Yankee is a derogatory term used to describe people from the US outside of this country.

[MK]

At the rate we are going, how long will it be before possession of items containing these “offensive” words become illegal? Sounds crazy but what we’re doing now would have sounded crazy 20 years ago.

[Fballguy]

Ironic that white liberals think they need to tell Native Americans what's best for them. That's wokest part of all.

[mr2686]

We should probably get rid of the Padres name to appease the atheists too.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by mr2686

We should probably get rid of the Padres name to appease the atheists too.

And while we're at it, let's rename another SoCal team...

The Los Angeles Agnostics of Anaheim

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by mr2686

We should probably get rid of the Padres name to appease the atheists too.

Or Saints.

[Tao_Moko]

Originally Posted by campyfan39

Respectfully submitted: There are so many things that "offend" all of us in this world but most of us just go on with our lives and let others do the same; understanding that we will never agree on everything. I think if this were done in another year we could give it more consideration etc. but 2020 has been a year of extremes in so many ways it just seems reactionary. (yes I know its been discussed for a while)

What is next? Braves? Chiefs? Tar Heels? Warriors? Yankees? Mountaineers? Seminoles? Ole Miss Rebels? Utes? Blackhawks? Colonials? Orangemen? Cowboys? Illini? Aztecs? Tribe? etc. Thats just off the top of my head

Not exactly the same, but I'm a huge Notre Dame fan and of Irish descent. My mascot is literally a short, fighting mad, cartoon leprechaun with red hair(sometimes), donning the colors of the Republic of Ireland. I'm not affected negatively by it, but I don't suggest that everyone should feel that way. I would also survive if we simply became a clover. Ultimately, there's not going to be anyway to make everyone happy. My point was there's other proud recognition available to pull from for Cleveland that might encompass a larger crowd. It's not ever going to be the end of the world if a sports team changes it's name. There are more important issues at hand than sports names and mascots.

[packs]

I know it may be hard to believe but there are almost no original names in sports. Even in the examples given, Ole Miss was known as the Flood until 1936. Time has a way of moving forward and after a while nobody even remembers there was a different name.

[campyfan39]

Lol! and the Providence Friars!
This silly discussion shows just how ridiculous this whole thing is.

Originally Posted by mr2686

we should probably get rid of the padres name to appease the atheists too.

[Throttlesteer]

Originally Posted by Tao_Moko

It's not ever going to be the end of the world if a sports team changes it's name. There are more important issues at hand than sports names and mascots.

Very true. But, that can be applied both to those who are annoyed with it, or those pushing desperately to change it. As previously pointed out, there are plenty of things to be frustrated, stressed, or even ill about in 2020. I believe a lot of the annoyance is that sports teams' names should be WAY down the list of priorities.

Perhaps people have too much time and pent up frustration from sitting at home and feel they "need to make a difference"?

[JollyElm]

If I call someone from France a Frenchman, it's fine. Oh, you hail from Sweden? You're a Swede. No problem. Down under? Hello, Aussie. But if I call someone from Mexico City a Mexican, the social justice d*bag warriors scream, "Racist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Sure it all makes perfect sense.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Jeez, is this supposed to be Chief Wahoo or John Wayne Gacy?

[Throttlesteer]

I think this one has gone the full course. I'm guessing Leon will have this locked in the not-so-distant future.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer

Very true. But, that can be applied both to those who are annoyed with it, or those pushing desperately to change it. As previously pointed out, there are plenty of things to be frustrated, stressed, or even ill about in 2020. I believe a lot of the annoyance is that sports teams' names should be WAY down the list of priorities.

Perhaps people have too much time and pent up frustration from sitting at home and feel they "need to make a difference"?

As I have posted before, my hometown college in Mankato, Minnesota changed its nickname from Indians to Mavericks more than 40 years ago, and the University of Nebraska-Omaha did the same at around the same time. Stanford too. These types of changes have been mulled and made for generations now, and yet now we hear the same gripes about them being the wet dreams of so-called progressives. Now it's claimed to be part of a cancel culture and it is suggested as the product of some new wave of leftists. No one is "pushing desperately to change it", it has been a topic of change for decades.

[cannonballsun]

I think this was mainly a company (owner's of the Cleveland Indians), deciding to do something that they thought would be good for their business. There had been no outcry recently about the name, it wasn't anything anybody had been talking about recently. It was just something the owners decided to do. Perhaps they felt it would be good public relations.
Of course we love sports, and we also love card collecting, but we often make it out to be something more important than it really is. Teams used to change names very often. It didn't used to be a big thing.
As Bob Dylan famously said "the times they are a changing".
My favorite saying is that "the only thing that never changes is that everything changes".
So, was I surprised to hear the name changed ? Yes. Is it a big deal to me ? No. I'm not an Cleveland Indian fan. If I were, I guess I would feel different.

[Tabe]

The owners have decided to get rid of the offensive portion of their name. Their new name will now be:

Ohio Indians


*rimshot*

My local minor league team is the Spokane Indians. They have partnered with the actual Spokane tribe ("The Spokane Tribe of Indians" being the official name) and seek to honor the tribe with the team name, logos, and the stadium. The logo has "Spokane" written in Salish, for example. That's the right way to do things.

I think the problem with Cleveland is that they have a loooooooong history of, well, being racist with their team name, logos, and mascots. Yes, they dropped Chief Wahoo but the legacy of all the garbage is still there.

Personally, I think it's a wise decision of them to change. I don't consider this a sign of the apocalypse or even "bad" in any way. As baseball fans, we should all know that nearly every team has had a ton of nicknames through the years. What's one more?

A suggested name I heard from someone else: Cleveland Admirals, in honor of Cleveland native Admiral Isaac Kidd, who was killed at Pearl Harbor and awarded the Medal of Honor.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

How about the "Cuyahoga Fire"?

[jakebeckleyoldeagleeye]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Ironic that white liberals think they need to tell Native Americans what's best for them. That's wokest part of all.

Minority tyranny wins again. Whatever the left touches it destroys. Even sports.

[tedzan]

Seriously, my advice to the owners is....re-name the team the Cleveland LAKERS....since the Stadium is situated next to Lake Erie.

Then, we can watch (and laugh) how the "politically correct" crowd struggles to change the name Lakers.....for they will try, as they
have no respect for anything traditional.
.