Very Interesting How Certain Stars are valued

[Seven]

Originally Posted by rats60

Mays was better in every phase of the game and his cards suffer the same fate as Williams. It is much simpler than all that. It is just being the star of the Yankees during the adolescence of baby boomers. Put Willie or Ted on the Yankees and we are talking about them being the face of Postwar Vintage.

I disagree. Mantle was objectively the better hitter, out of the two, especially in their respective primes. More Homers, Higher OBP, Higher WRC+, More Walks. Mantle did it on one healthy knee too. I think based off potential, and had he not caught his spikes in that drain, The Mick would've probably had an even more prolific career. Mays had the longevity. Looking at their peaks I'd take Mantle in his peak over just about anyone.

But that aside, I think a lot of it is also attributed to Mantle being a Yankee as well. Hell they could've played in the same outfield, if it wasn't for the Yankees Owner at the time being a Huge Racist. What a sight that would have been! Mays and Mantle patrolling the outfield together.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Seven

I disagree. Mantle was objectively the better hitter, out of the two, especially in their respective primes. More Homers, Higher OBP, Higher WRC+, More Walks. Mantle did it on one healthy knee too. I think based off potential, and had he not caught his spikes in that drain, The Mick would've probably had an even more prolific career. Mays had the longevity. Looking at their peaks I'd take Mantle in his peak over just about anyone.

But that aside, I think a lot of it is also attributed to Mantle being a Yankee as well. Hell they could've played in the same outfield, if it wasn't for the Yankees Owner at the time being a Huge Racist. What a sight that would have been! Mays and Mantle patrolling the outfield together.

Mays had a higher BA and equal SLG despite playing in a more difficult hitters park, Candlestick. Mantle walked more and struck out more. Their per 162 game stats are remarkably similar, but Mays had a longer peak. As far as speed and defense, it is not close, Mays was far superior.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by rats60

Mays had a higher BA and equal SLG despite playing in a more difficult hitters park, Candlestick. Mantle walked more and struck out more. Their per 162 game stats are remarkably similar, but Mays had a longer peak. As far as speed and defense, it is not close, Mays was far superior.

Career road OPS:

Mantle .958

Mays .931

And Mays hit more of his HRs at his home park(s), despite more than 400 fewer plate appearances than on the road

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

Career road OPS:

Mantle .958

Mays .931

And Mays hit more of his HRs at his home park(s), despite more than 400 fewer plate appearances than on the road

The OPS is a bit misleading when you consider Mays had McCovey hitting right behind him for over a decade. Putting Willie on base was more dangerous than working around Mantle.

Mays had over twice as many SB as Mantle.

[Seven]

Mays also had two healthy Knees. That's not a knock to either of them but at a Minimum Mantle was playing with a Torn ACL for the entirety of his career. I tend to put heavy value on Weighted Runs Created Plus, a park neutral stat created to quantify how good a player is at "Creating Runs" on the offensive side of the game. Mantle put up a 170 for his career, his peak being 217, Mays put up a 154 for his career with his peak being a 186.

To no ones surprise Williams trounces both of them, a 188 for his career, with a 223 being his highest mark. We can have this argument till the cows come home, I don't think any of us will change our respective opinions

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by Seven

We can have this argument till the cows come home, I don't think any of us will change our respective opinions

True. Although bringing up postseason numbers can't hurt. We haven't even gotten to that yet

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Seven

Mays also had two healthy Knees. That's not a knock to either of them but at a Minimum Mantle was playing with a Torn ACL for the entirety of his career. I tend to put heavy value on Weighted Runs Created Plus, a park neutral stat created to quantify how good a player is at "Creating Runs" on the offensive side of the game. Mantle put up a 170 for his career, his peak being 217, Mays put up a 154 for his career with his peak being a 186.

To no ones surprise Williams trounces both of them, a 188 for his career, with a 223 being his highest mark. We can have this argument till the cows come home, I don't think any of us will change our respective opinions

I don't value it at all. It is a fantasy stat which over values walks. Saying Mantle had a higher OPS+ or wRC+ is just repeating that Mantle walked more. None of these "advanced metrics" consider strike outs which don't advance runners or score runs. Hits are better than walks. Putting the ball in play is better than striking out. They had about the same home run rate and slugging percentage despite Mays playing in a pitchers park. At worst Mays was Mantle's equal as a hitter with a longer peak.

[packs]

It doesn't matter who was better. This thread has already established that skill does not equate to high priced cards. Doesn't seem like it's a point that can be defended in this thread.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by Mark17

The OPS is a bit misleading when you consider Mays had McCovey hitting right behind him for over a decade. Putting Willie on base was more dangerous than working around Mantle.

Mays had over twice as many SB as Mantle.

That made things much better for Mays' power numbers. Probably even more of a benefit than fewer walks hurt his OPS.

But despite that huge advantage of having the '60s most feared hitter batting behind him, Mays' lifetime slugging % was the same as Mantle's

And Mays didn't walk more before McCovey than he did with him.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

That made things much better for Mays' power numbers. Probably even more of a benefit than fewer walks hurt his OPS.

But despite that huge advantage of having the '60s most feared hitter batting behind him, Mays' lifetime slugging % was the same as Mantle's

And Mays didn't walk more before McCovey than he did with him.

McCovey was the most feared hitter from 1968-70 when Mays was in his decline. McCovey was a .270 lifetime hitter with the 74th highest slugging percentage. It is not like the Yankees didn't have talented hitters. Berra was in the lineup for most of Mantle's peak. Howard was good enough to win a MVP. Skowron had some strong years.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by rats60

McCovey was the most feared hitter from 1968-70 when Mays was in his decline. McCovey was a .270 lifetime hitter with the 74th highest slugging percentage. It is not like the Yankees didn't have talented hitters. Berra was in the lineup for most of Mantle's peak. Howard was good enough to win a MVP. Skowron had some strong years.

No, McCovey wasn't. Read what Casey Stengel and others said about him (well before 1968). The reputation just went to a whole new level for the second half of the '60s.

I love Yogi to death, and he was definitely a clutch hitter who managers didn't want to deal with. But I doubt it instilled the fear of a 6'4 guy who hit absolute missiles all over the park. And as far as those other guys: they were great players, but any comparison to how much McCovey produced or was feared/pitched around is comical. Even in Howard's MVP season, he walked 35 times and hit .287/28/85 with an OPS of .869. It was just a run of the mill very good year at the plate.

[Snapolit1]

Can argue stats all day, and I find it fascinating, but the bottom line is a 1952 Topps Mantle PSA 8 sells for basically ten times what a 1952 Topps Mays PSA 8 sells for.

Psa pop for 8s
Mantle 35
Mays 59

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by rats60

As far as speed and defense, it is not close, Mays was far superior.

Defense? Sure. Speed? If Mays was faster, it wasn't by such a margin that it's "not close". Mickey was really, really fast. AFTER his knee injury, he was timed home to 1st in 3.1 seconds as a lefty. That's basically an average of 15mph starting from a dead stop.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Defense? Sure. Speed? If Mays was faster, it wasn't by such a margin that it's "not close". Mickey was really, really fast. AFTER his knee injury, he was timed home to 1st in 3.1 seconds as a lefty. That's basically an average of 15mph starting from a dead stop.

Mantle took an extra base 54% of the time, which is exceptional. Mays took an extra base 63% of the time, which is the most ever.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Defense? Sure. Speed? If Mays was faster, it wasn't by such a margin that it's "not close". Mickey was really, really fast. AFTER his knee injury, he was timed home to 1st in 3.1 seconds as a lefty. That's basically an average of 15mph starting from a dead stop.

Correction - er, maybe. I just found where Wikipedia insinuates the 3.1 timing was in 1959(?!) I had always read it was from his rookie season. If true and not just legend, that's really remarkable - after the knee surgeries as you mention, and at age 27? Does anyone know for sure when the 3.1 timing was taken?

-----

The 3.1 timings were from the spring of '51 - which would have been before the knee injury in the World Series with the drain pipe. He was certainly fast afterward, but not that fast.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Seven

Mays and Mantle patrolling the outfield together.

Those two might have been able to cover enough ground to play without a third outfielder.