Very Interesting How Certain Stars are valued

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

Career road OPS:

Mantle .958

Mays .931

And Mays hit more of his HRs at his home park(s), despite more than 400 fewer plate appearances than on the road

The OPS is a bit misleading when you consider Mays had McCovey hitting right behind him for over a decade. Putting Willie on base was more dangerous than working around Mantle.

Mays had over twice as many SB as Mantle.

[Seven]

Mays also had two healthy Knees. That's not a knock to either of them but at a Minimum Mantle was playing with a Torn ACL for the entirety of his career. I tend to put heavy value on Weighted Runs Created Plus, a park neutral stat created to quantify how good a player is at "Creating Runs" on the offensive side of the game. Mantle put up a 170 for his career, his peak being 217, Mays put up a 154 for his career with his peak being a 186.

To no ones surprise Williams trounces both of them, a 188 for his career, with a 223 being his highest mark. We can have this argument till the cows come home, I don't think any of us will change our respective opinions

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by Seven

We can have this argument till the cows come home, I don't think any of us will change our respective opinions

True. Although bringing up postseason numbers can't hurt. We haven't even gotten to that yet

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Seven

Mays also had two healthy Knees. That's not a knock to either of them but at a Minimum Mantle was playing with a Torn ACL for the entirety of his career. I tend to put heavy value on Weighted Runs Created Plus, a park neutral stat created to quantify how good a player is at "Creating Runs" on the offensive side of the game. Mantle put up a 170 for his career, his peak being 217, Mays put up a 154 for his career with his peak being a 186.

To no ones surprise Williams trounces both of them, a 188 for his career, with a 223 being his highest mark. We can have this argument till the cows come home, I don't think any of us will change our respective opinions

I don't value it at all. It is a fantasy stat which over values walks. Saying Mantle had a higher OPS+ or wRC+ is just repeating that Mantle walked more. None of these "advanced metrics" consider strike outs which don't advance runners or score runs. Hits are better than walks. Putting the ball in play is better than striking out. They had about the same home run rate and slugging percentage despite Mays playing in a pitchers park. At worst Mays was Mantle's equal as a hitter with a longer peak.

[packs]

It doesn't matter who was better. This thread has already established that skill does not equate to high priced cards. Doesn't seem like it's a point that can be defended in this thread.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by Mark17

The OPS is a bit misleading when you consider Mays had McCovey hitting right behind him for over a decade. Putting Willie on base was more dangerous than working around Mantle.

Mays had over twice as many SB as Mantle.

That made things much better for Mays' power numbers. Probably even more of a benefit than fewer walks hurt his OPS.

But despite that huge advantage of having the '60s most feared hitter batting behind him, Mays' lifetime slugging % was the same as Mantle's

And Mays didn't walk more before McCovey than he did with him.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

That made things much better for Mays' power numbers. Probably even more of a benefit than fewer walks hurt his OPS.

But despite that huge advantage of having the '60s most feared hitter batting behind him, Mays' lifetime slugging % was the same as Mantle's

And Mays didn't walk more before McCovey than he did with him.

McCovey was the most feared hitter from 1968-70 when Mays was in his decline. McCovey was a .270 lifetime hitter with the 74th highest slugging percentage. It is not like the Yankees didn't have talented hitters. Berra was in the lineup for most of Mantle's peak. Howard was good enough to win a MVP. Skowron had some strong years.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by rats60

McCovey was the most feared hitter from 1968-70 when Mays was in his decline. McCovey was a .270 lifetime hitter with the 74th highest slugging percentage. It is not like the Yankees didn't have talented hitters. Berra was in the lineup for most of Mantle's peak. Howard was good enough to win a MVP. Skowron had some strong years.

No, McCovey wasn't. Read what Casey Stengel and others said about him (well before 1968). The reputation just went to a whole new level for the second half of the '60s.

I love Yogi to death, and he was definitely a clutch hitter who managers didn't want to deal with. But I doubt it instilled the fear of a 6'4 guy who hit absolute missiles all over the park. And as far as those other guys: they were great players, but any comparison to how much McCovey produced or was feared/pitched around is comical. Even in Howard's MVP season, he walked 35 times and hit .287/28/85 with an OPS of .869. It was just a run of the mill very good year at the plate.