Very Interesting How Certain Stars are valued

[puckpaul]

Originally Posted by packs

I think you're discounting personality when it comes to Mantle. He was widely regarded as a carefree American icon who got into plenty of trouble with the boys. What are the perceptions of Ted Williams, though? I remember hearing stories of a cold man who didn't keep very many people close and alienated his players as a manager. Fondness matters too.

Yes, it’s this. Williams was cold and widely disliked. Mantle was the all-American hero.

[Casey2296]

Whats that thing Leon always says? Every thread needs a...

[Jgrace]

Originally Posted by puckpaul

Yes, it’s this. Williams was cold and widely disliked. Mantle was the all-American hero.

I read his biography. Interesting person, for sure. Like many others (see: Cobb), his reputation paints only a small part of the picture of his actual persona. Everyone is multi-dimensional, and the narrative too often boils it down to something simple. After all, Mantle was a surly drunk, but that is overlooked due to the aura surrounding his career in the 1950s.

Fascinating topic.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by puckpaul

Yes, it’s this. Williams was cold and widely disliked. Mantle was the all-American hero.

Mostly a difference in how their local press handled them.

Boston sports press has always been very harsh with the players. A reflection perhaps of the fans. When Ted came to the majors, he wasn't a great fielder. And despite being an incredible hitter, got reamed in the press for his fielding.
As if he was the only one who had problems with left field at Fenway.
(He was just the beginning of a list of good players who had problems there early in their careers but eventually did alright. Yaz, Rice, Greenwell, Manny... all took the same knock from the press. )

He was also I think someone who didn't have much tolerance for nonsense like that and simply stopped being all that available to the press.

The NY press has always seemed more focused on the positive, preferring to write about hits and homers over misplayed balls that cost the game.

Mantle himself doesn't actually seem like all that swell of a guy. If I had a change to hang out with either for a few hours, I'd pick Williams.

[skelly423]

Just my two cents, but I think part of the reason for the pricing gaps goes beyond on-field performance. People love a great story. Cobb was the mean, nasty fight-the-world terror. Babe Ruth was larger than life in every way. Jackie Robinson transcended baseball and became a symbol of America's racial divide. Mickey Mantle was the good looking golden boy living everyone else's dream of being the biggest star on the biggest team, all while battling his demons. Clemente met an untimely end serving a noble cause. In addition to being great players, there's a certain extra appeal that comes from the peel behind the curtain to see what these players were like off the field.

With all due respect to the players, nobody has any stories about Eddie Collins or Lajoie. Lou Gehrig was as vanilla as they come off the field. Stan Musial was by all accounts a wonderful man, but there's no character arc to his life story.

In my opinion, if a player didn't overwhelm statistically (a la Cy Young), and doesn't have something interesting in their life story, they fade into the ether with everybody else.

[Snapolit1]

Very good points. And I wouldn't discount the tendency for people to idolize people who seem more familiar to them. Mantle was the guy who was the American wholesome boy need door. Basically Neil Armstrong. Or course he was not that at all. And Willie Mays, like so many black players before and after him, was a natural athlete but always considered standoffish and maybe even a little too arrogant.

Jackie and Clemente are revered primarily for historical reasons. Both excellent players of course. Many other players of color like Frank Robinson were studs but have low collectability. Hell, Joe Morgan was the first or second best second basement of all time and when was the last time you saw someone discussing one of his cards.

I think physical looks play into it too, like they do for everything in like. Collins and Yogi were hardly considered matinee idols. I always figured that why Matthewson seems to have the leg up on Walter Johnson. Matty looked like a freakin' movie star. Johnson not so much.

Complicated but interesting issue.

Originally Posted by skelly423

Just my two cents, but I think part of the reason for the pricing gaps goes beyond on-field performance. People love a great story. Cobb was the mean, nasty fight-the-world terror. Babe Ruth was larger than life in every way. Jackie Robinson transcended baseball and became a symbol of America's racial divide. Mickey Mantle was the good looking golden boy living everyone else's dream of being the biggest star on the biggest team, all while battling his demons. Clemente met an untimely end serving a noble cause. In addition to being great players, there's a certain extra appeal that comes from the peel behind the curtain to see what these players were like off the field.

With all due respect to the players, nobody has any stories about Eddie Collins or Lajoie. Lou Gehrig was as vanilla as they come off the field. Stan Musial was by all accounts a wonderful man, but there's no character arc to his life story.

In my opinion, if a player didn't overwhelm statistically (a la Cy Young), and doesn't have something interesting in their life story, they fade into the ether with everybody else.

[packs]

I would argue that Frank Robinson and Willie Mays suffer from Ted Williams disease. Not too many fans had much to get excited about in their interactions with Robinson or Mays.

As much as these guys grouse about their due they are usually at least partially responsible for being ignored. How many Mays or Robinson or Bench fan stories have we heard on the board where they actively try to ignore, upset or ruin an item.

I remember being at Nationals spring training while Robinson was the manager. The team was awful and predictably there were maybe a dozen fans there for practice. I'd say 11 out of 12 were there for Robinson alone, who was more than happy to blow us all off at the end of practice. How can I ever seek out his cards when that's the impression I have of him as someone who never saw him play?

[Snapolit1]

I would argue that the percentage of fans who have interacted with Mays personally are minscule. Yeah, he's a grouchy old man. So was Joe D. Have you heard stories of some of the stuff that Mickey Mantle did to fans. C'mon. "Hey Mickey can I have an autograph." "Fuck you." Many many many of those stories. Was a horribly nasty drunk for many years. Didn't seem to affect his collectibility one iota. Look up his under the bleachers story.

Originally Posted by packs

I would argue that Frank Robinson and Willie Mays suffer from Ted Williams disease. Not too many fans had much to get excited about in their interactions with Robinson or Mays.

As much as these guys grouse about their due they are usually at least partially responsible for being ignored. How many Mays or Robinson or Bench fan stories have we heard on the board where they actively try to ignore, upset or ruin an item.

[packs]

I actually don't think that's true. How can a guy who seemed to sign at every show that ever got put together for 25 or 30 years be someone people associate with as not gracious to fans?

[oldeboo]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I think physical looks play into it too, like they do for everything in like. Collins and Yogi were hardly considered matinee idols. I always figured that why Matthewson seems to have the leg up on Walter Johnson. Matty looked like a freakin' movie star. Johnson not so much.

Ha! I always think this when I see Cy Young cards. I mean he was Cy Young, with all due respect, but he didn't exactly have the body of a Greek god. Maybe that's relatable to most of us here with our fanny packs and all.

[Ricky]

Ted was actually a pretty garrulous guy who loved to have a beer and laugh... he just hated sportswriters. His interactions with fans were, overall, pretty decent. One of my favorite cards of his is my '41 Play Ball.

[Yoda]

I attended a Yankee's game with my Dad in either '55 or '56 at the old Stadium. Mick hit 2 bombs, one from the right side of the plate and one from the left, and I believe that half the fans would have taken a bullet for him that afternoon. After that, I was a Mantle man for life and followed relentlessly his achievements and tribulations off the field.
He had a grace and presence on the field that was palpable. Just watching him jog in from CF to the dugout seemed magical.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Very good points. And I wouldn't discount the tendency for people to idolize people who seem more familiar to them. Mantle was the guy who was the American wholesome boy need door. Basically Neil Armstrong. Or course he was not that at all. And Willie Mays, like so many black players before and after him, was a natural athlete but always considered standoffish and maybe even a little too arrogant.

Jackie and Clemente are revered primarily for historical reasons. Both excellent players of course. Many other players of color like Frank Robinson were studs but have low collectability. Hell, Joe Morgan was the first or second best second basement of all time and when was the last time you saw someone discussing one of his cards.

I think physical looks play into it too, like they do for everything in like. Collins and Yogi were hardly considered matinee idols. I always figured that why Matthewson seems to have the leg up on Walter Johnson. Matty looked like a freakin' movie star. Johnson not so much.

Complicated but interesting issue.

Great, great post. I have often wondered how Ted Williams would have been viewed had he worn Yankee pinstripes and escaped the Boston media? Also, would Mantle have been Mantle had he played in Boston? I enjoy collecting both players and have no axe to grind either way. More questions than answers I guess.

[luciobar1980]

Originally Posted by skelly423

Just my two cents, but I think part of the reason for the pricing gaps goes beyond on-field performance. People love a great story. Cobb was the mean, nasty fight-the-world terror. Babe Ruth was larger than life in every way. Jackie Robinson transcended baseball and became a symbol of America's racial divide. Mickey Mantle was the good looking golden boy living everyone else's dream of being the biggest star on the biggest team, all while battling his demons. Clemente met an untimely end serving a noble cause. In addition to being great players, there's a certain extra appeal that comes from the peel behind the curtain to see what these players were like off the field.

With all due respect to the players, nobody has any stories about Eddie Collins or Lajoie. Lou Gehrig was as vanilla as they come off the field. Stan Musial was by all accounts a wonderful man, but there's no character arc to his life story.

In my opinion, if a player didn't overwhelm statistically (a la Cy Young), and doesn't have something interesting in their life story, they fade into the ether with everybody else.

Yup, this pretty much sums it up in a nutshell.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by puckpaul

Yes, it’s this. Williams was cold and widely disliked. Mantle was the all-American hero.

I am not saying I disagree with this public perception, I just finding striking considering, off the field, Williams WAS a hero. Not only did he serve his country, but he had a drive to succeed that is quite admirable. Mantle, off the field, tried to drink himself to death. Yet I would bet many, including me, would love to have fun-guy Mantle as their next door neighbor.