Would you buy from PWCC?

[Goudey77]

I get that most posting on this subject is making a statement through their actions. If that is the case then look into your TPG's (PSA comes to mind) do you stop buying anything PSA graded? Because of the potential issues surrounding their business?

Let's not be hypocritical here. Pointing fingers can't stop at one source.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

I get that most posting on this subject is making a statement through their actions. If that is the case then look into your TPG's (PSA comes to mind) do you stop buying anything PSA graded? Because of the potential issues surrounding their business?

Let's not be hypocritical here. Pointing fingers can't stop at one source.

Sorta get your point...I stated something about that earlier however we do not have as many options with TPG as we do with places to buy cards. There are lots of other outlets that come with far less issues.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

I get that most posting on this subject is making a statement through their actions. If that is the case then look into your TPG's (PSA comes to mind) do you stop buying anything PSA graded? Because of the potential issues surrounding their business?

Let's not be hypocritical here. Pointing fingers can't stop at one source.

I agree with you in theory, but the reality is that PSA is just so pervasive. Professional grading certainly has it's faults, but if I'm buying a $100 card that I'm not able to physically inspect first online, I'm going to want something in a slab. I am an SGC fan and will always try to find their slabs first, but in many cases whatever I'm looking for exists in multiples online with PSA vs. SGC. While I don't think PSA is totally above board, at least recently in their dealings with PWCC and possibly others, I do think that a vast majority of midrange vintage cards in their slabs are apt to be accurately graded. Last year's scandal, while disturbing - didn't really do much in terms of knocking PSA from their position / reputation as the market leader. Vintage HOF cards still easily sell for more in PSA slabs than the same card raw. While I can say I don't like this, as a collector who occasionally sells cards to finance other things - I also can't totally ignore it.

I will agree it's a bit of a double-edged sword and less than an ideal situation.

[Goudey77]

John, I totally agree with what you're saying.

My main point was that PWCC, PSA, SGC, Heritage, uncle Rick etc etc. are all in the middle serving our community. You also throw in sketchy shill bid collectors/card doctors then you have a collective bunch who are in this together. Just want to make it clear in my honest opinion there is no one source to blame.

To hate on a particular entity within the community is like hating on the community as a whole. It's a cyclical hobby and we are all in it together.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

To hate on a particular entity within the community is like hating on the community as a whole. It's a cyclical hobby and we are all in it together.

This statement is patently false. There some people in this hobby who are crooks, liars, cheaters, etc. They are pieces of shit and deserve to be “hated” on, which is in no way a reflection on the vast majority of decent folk collecting cardboard. I understand it’s not always black and white - in most cases it’s a shade of gray- but you think it’s wrong to “hate” on Gary Moser and other clear scum bags?

In fact, I think we have a duty to hate on those particular entities that are problematic- at least call them out and talk about them. This is how we self police and help the vast majority of good folks.

Ryan Hotchkiss

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

I get that most posting on this subject is making a statement through their actions. If that is the case then look into your TPG's (PSA comes to mind) do you stop buying anything PSA graded? Because of the potential issues surrounding their business?

Let's not be hypocritical here. Pointing fingers can't stop at one source.

Regarding the part in bold, my answer is yes. But I would remove the word "potential" from the last sentence.

[jchcollins]

Yeah Martin, I would disagree. PSA has had shady elements to its business practices for decades now in terms of who gets what grades, what cards may or may not be altered, consistency of grading over time, the list goes on and on. But the hobby as a whole did not hard check them enough over this most recent episode to make a difference, other than a bunch of the usual complaining. There's a conflict of interest here in theory for most of us - we suspect skulduggery on some level with a grader, but most of us have slabs with nice cards from said grader that would be worth less and perhaps even substantially less if indeed that grader's reputation is noticeably harmed. So we don't do it.

I don't know if that means we can't continue to call out individual bad actors and things that we know are wrong. For PSA before 2018, there is a lot of speculation, but not a ton of absolute proof in terms of wrongdoing. (That is if you don't consider the case of the very first card they ever graded - which was known to be altered at the time, and was slabbed as not being that way regardless).

If we are being positive and not criticizing the community as a whole, sure I would like to see PSA "improve" - but I think you do this via a free market and giving them more competition. Place more emphasis on correct authentication and the subtleties of alteration than simply focusing on the difference between a PSA 9 and 10, perhaps. But again, there would have to be a market demand to do this - and if the past 2 years for PWCC and PSA are any indication - a few people here on message boards that are actually card geeks and not just flip worshippers have not been nearly enough to do that.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

If we are being positive and not criticizing the community as a whole, sure I would like to see PSA "improve" - but I think you do this via a free market and giving them more competition. Place more emphasis on correct authentication and the subtleties of alteration than simply focusing on the difference between a PSA 9 and 10, perhaps. But again, there would have to be a market demand to do this - and if the past 2 years for PWCC and PSA are any indication - a few people here on message boards that are actually card geeks and not just flip worshippers have not been nearly enough to do that.

A vast majority of collectors seem to like The Emperor's New Clothes. The number on the flip is more important than the actual item being evaluated.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by perezfan

A vast majority of collectors seem to like The Emperor's New Clothes. The number on the flip is more important than the actual item being evaluated.

Unfortunately for some I think this is true. I have a modest collection I keep at home and fiddle with more or less every day (moreso since COVID and working from home, probably). Some dudes spend thousands regularly on single slabs and stock their bank safety deposit boxes, never seeing the cards after they are purchased. That may be "investment", but it's not a hobby. I'll take the latter.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Unfortunately for some I think this is true. I have a modest collection I keep at home and fiddle with more or less every day (moreso since COVID and working from home, probably). Some dudes spend thousands regularly on single slabs and stock their bank safety deposit boxes, never seeing the cards after they are purchased. That may be "investment", but it's not a hobby. I'll take the latter.

Believe it or not you can both enjoy a hobby and keep some of your more expensive cards safe at the bank. What I or anyone else chooses to spend on a card doesn't make collecting them any more or less of a hobby.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Believe it or not you can both enjoy a hobby and keep some of your more expensive cards safe at the bank. What I or anyone else chooses to spend on a card doesn't make collecting them any more or less of a hobby.

Sorry, did not mean to pigeonhole anyone. Yes clearly, there are also quite informed collectors that enjoy the hobby who store valuable cards somewhere other than their home. What I meant was at least in some cases, I get the idea that some people do this purely as an investment, and don't really know / care anything about cards. You do not sound like one of those people. I should clarify to say of course there is nothing wrong with that. Each unto their own.

[vthobby]

I consign and buy from PWCC consistently. There are some of us that have been around long enough that can easily tell a trimmed or doctored card in a TPG holder. I don't buy those. I buy bargains! Plenty to be had when you really look.

Peace, Mike