Wagner T206 Auctioned in 1981

[toppcat]

Lew's Ex+ to Ex-Mt = VG at best

[Fred]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Lew's Ex+ to Ex-Mt = VG at best

"Watch you talkin bout Willis?" I don't even want to have to explain that quote...

Are you saying that Lew was a little "generous" in his grading?

Tell you what, just reading the auction ad makes a lot of us salivate... I would love to see the final hammer on the items in that auction. Back then, the final hammer prices may have seemed a bit outrageous, but today, we'd all call them a steal.

Makes you wonder if this is "the" Gretzky/McNall Wagner that is also PSA cert number 000000001. If so, does that mean that someone with a last name that starts with "M" was the winner of the auction?

[swarmee]

Wouldn't that more likely be the Jumbo Wagner that's a PSA 5(MC) for being oversized?
I thought the Mastro Wagner was cut down from a strip of 5.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Wouldn't that more likely be the Jumbo Wagner that's a PSA 5(MC) for being oversized?
I thought the Mastro Wagner was cut down from a strip of 5.

Correct, that Wagner was cut from a panel of 5, I was wondering if this was after the initial cut. I didn't follow that panel of 5 story so I don't know when it was cut from that panel. Pretty sure it could have had generous borders. It probably could be the Jumbo Wags. Lew could tell us...

[mantlefan]

Wow. Trim "if 'someone' wanted"...and right now it's likely sitting in a PSA 5 holder in 'someone's' safe deposit box.

[Yoda]

I believe the Wagner might actually be Lew's own. I believe he sold his about that time. From his description, I believe it might have ended up 40 years later in a recent Goldin Auction. Just a suspicion. That's all.

[Ricky]

I thought the Gretzky Wagner was cut from a full sheet of T206 cards and that didn’t happen until the mid-1980s.

[robertsmithnocure]

I do not think that it is the Gretzky Wagner. It is probably the Jumbo Wagner.

[topcat61]

Originally Posted by Ricky

I thought the Gretzky Wagner was cut from a full sheet of T206 cards and that didn’t happen until the mid-1980s.

Most likely that is the case. There are before and after photos and Mastro did say it was trimmed. I think most people who are familiar with the case believe that Mastro trimmed the card on two separate occasions.

The problem I have is that if the story is correct, a full sheet would not only be worth 2-3 times more than the Wagner itself at auction, but more importantly, solve a lot more questions than answers we have about the set. If the card was actually cut from a sheet (and I believe it was) than that's probably one of the biggest travesties in the Hobby.

I did enjoy the book The Card very much, but I think the authors need to revisit it and add a chapter on the aftermath and Bill Mastro and Doug Allen's trial.

[TCMA]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Wouldn't that more likely be the Jumbo Wagner that's a PSA 5(MC) for being oversized?

Lew sold my father's Wagner, the "Jumbo Wagner" via auction in 1984:

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by TCMA

Lew sold my father's Wagner, the "Jumbo Wagner" via auction in 1984:

Gorgeous!

[chriskim]

Originally Posted by TCMA

Lew sold my father's Wagner, the "Jumbo Wagner" via auction in 1984:

Was your father the original owner of that Wagner? If not, where did he find such nice Wagner? Amazing card!

[benjulmag]

What this conversation reinforces to me is the absolute absurdity of pinning precise numbers to grades, down to half a grade, and having a card's value change by multiples based on the most minor of grade shifts, which in and of themselves are entirely subjective. To me the only value of grading is to opine whether a card is authentic and unaltered. After that, good images of the front and verso are all that I need.

As has been discussed a number of times, the absurdity of TPG reaches its zenith with blank-backed photographic cards (e.g., N172s), where photo quality is not factored in but blemishes on the versos are. Without exaggeration I can state that there are 1s I would prefer over 8s.

Technically this Wagner might be a 3.5. But if one has it in hand, as I have, it is gorgeous and IMO has significantly greater eye appeal than all the other vg-exs I have seen. Yes, when one blows up the corners, one can see the paper loss and other defects. But when you see it in person, those defects don't stand out.

For my taste, the two things that detract the most are its size and the stain in the upper left portion of the orange background. I've always found it interesting how collectors put a premium on oversize cards, which, to me being off size, conceptually are no different than undersized cards, which many collectors frown upon. Of course I recognize that the more oversized the card, the less likely it was trimmed. But if one has a card with a pedigree that makes one reasonably confident it was not altered, I would prefer the regular sized card.

[insidethewrapper]

Are we now talking about the HOF Wagner that has not been graded or the Graded PSA 5(MC) ?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

What this conversation reinforces to me is the absolute absurdity of pinning precise numbers to grades, down to half a grade, and having a card's value change by multiples based on the most minor of grade shifts, which in and of themselves are entirely subjective. To me the only value of grading is to opine whether a card is authentic and unaltered. After that, good images of the front and verso are all that I need.

As has been discussed a number of times, the absurdity of TPG reaches its zenith with blank-backed photographic cards (e.g., N172s), where photo quality is not factored in but blemishes on the versos are. Without exaggeration I can state that there are 1s I would prefer over 8s.

Technically this Wagner might be a 3.5. But if one has it in hand, as I have, it is gorgeous and IMO has significantly greater eye appeal than all the other vg-exs I have seen. Yes, when one blows up the corners, one can see the paper loss and other defects. But when you see it in person, those defects don't stand out.

For my taste, the two things that detract the most are its size and the stain in the upper left portion of the orange background. I've always found it interesting how collectors put a premium on oversize cards, which, to me being off size, conceptually are no different than undersized cards, which many collectors frown upon. Of course I recognize that the more oversized the card, the less likely it was trimmed. But if one has a card with a pedigree that makes one reasonably confident it was not altered, I would prefer the regular sized card.

Extremely well stated... but "absurdity" might be an understatement.

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Lew's Ex+ to Ex-Mt = VG at best

Lew was quite a pioneer and we should be grateful for his endeavors, but his grading could be a couple of full grades off. Never in the right direction.

[insidethewrapper]

I'm sure if I sent in that card it would come back "ungradable" due to size.

[insidethewrapper]

Corey: So that card is currently in the HOF ? It has never been graded ?

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

Corey: So that card is currently in the HOF ? It has never been graded ?

Yes. That is correct.

[swarmee]

Ah, so this is the only card I've seen in person.

[sforaker]

Corey - Thank you for sharing that information on the Wagner.