Wagner T206 Auctioned in 1981

[chriskim]

Come on guys!... pls don't flop this thread to against Mr. Lew Lipset. Lew is one of the legend!

[riggs336]

Originally Posted by chriskim

Come on guys!... pls don't flop this thread to against Mr. Lew Lipset. Lew is one of the legend!

While I never dealt with him in person, I had many interactions with Mr. Lipset

through mail, telephone and email. He was always courteous and helpful.

[brianp-beme]

In all fairness, I was probably in my early to mid 20's when the 'T3 at the card show' incident occurred that I described earlier. He may have just been one of those 'get off my lawn' dealer types when it came to young'uns.

I definitely recognize his contribution to the hobby, and on here I have probably mentioned his Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards books in my posts more often than anyone else. But really, not even to thank me for instantly returning a card he accidentally handed to me for free...?

Brian

[insidethewrapper]

Has this card ever been verified to have been pulled from a cigarette pack ? I have heard about "cut from a sheet " and "has large margins" and "being trimmed " etc. sounds like more of a proof card than a regular issued card. Need T206 experts to respond . Has anyone seen an" average Joe's" collection or relative's estate of T206's or an " attic find" and a Wagner was in that Lot of cards ? I haven't. Need T206 experts to respond. Thanks

[steve B]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

Has this card ever been verified to have been pulled from a cigarette pack ? I have heard about "cut from a sheet " and "has large margins" and "being trimmed " etc. sounds like more of a proof card than a regular issued card. Need T206 experts to respond . Has anyone seen an" average Joe's" collection or relative's estate of T206's or an " attic find" and a Wagner was in that Lot of cards ? I haven't. Need T206 experts to respond. Thanks

Yes, there was one auctioned in Woodbury CT early 90's? Late 80's? I forget the year. Probably late 80's as T206 resource shows sales back to 1991.

It was a couple days after Thanksgiving, and I grew up in Woodbury. Family still in the area, so I had to go to the auction. They had a pretty big batch of T205 and T206 that had been stored in a cigarette carton for a long time. Most were pretty worn.
The collection included a Wagner.

They actually held the auction briefly a big money buyer could get there for the card. He was running late.
It sold for 30,000. And was sold a couple more times between dealers over the next year or two. It was very subject to advertising "grade creep" being appropriately f-g in the original auction and ending up being called g-vg (No alterations, just hype)

I bought a t205 minor leaguer.... At least I have a card that was in the same box as a Wagner..

[Tao_Moko]

$30k is pretty amazing. I wonder what card now we'll be looking back on in 30-40 years and saying the same thing. It will be hard to eclipse the media and collector attention Wagner has brought.

Lew was always kind to me, but I was a young preteen guy working in a card shop and he liked that I knew what questions to ask. I was ignored at many a table back then and though outstanding customer service is not uncommon, I would bet that table profiling is still alive and well in the industry. I would also agree that Lew graded his cards more fairly to himself, but that was pretty much a standard and still is("undergraded") for the seller.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by chriskim

Come on guys!... pls don't flop this thread to against Mr. Lew Lipset. Lew is one of the legend!

Clearly you weren’t on the wrong end of one of his blatant misrepresentations, to put it nicely.

Great hobby books when there were none but that doesn’t give an excuse.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Clearly you weren’t on the wrong end of one of his blatant misrepresentations, to put it nicely.

Great hobby books when there were none but that doesn’t give an excuse.

That's a pretty harsh take for mine.

Back in the day dealers were all over the place in their descriptions of condition.....some were on the super generous side and a vg-ex card could arrive looking ex+ or better, others called a vg card ex+. Others were what we might call more orthodox in their estimations.

As long as you knew the dealer and their tendencies you had no problem, it wasn't as if their grading assignations changed card to card or week to week.
You knew quickly that they were consistently accurate to your estimations, undergraders or overgraders and you could then decide if the price matched your valuation.

This was waaaaay pre grading companies and people had their own preferences for what made a card attractive.
Back damage wasn't as vital if the paper loss was small, and great centering/registration/color could be considered more important than vg ish corners when assigning a grading opinion.

Think it's pretty poor calling out someone from that time and generation for their take on grading, or whether they were brusk in their social interactions.
Not everyone has to want to break bread and be a hobby friend to not get the name muddied on a collector forum, especially when taking in their contributions to said hobby.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

That's a pretty harsh take for mine..

I don’t need to quote everything

I’m not referring to the good old days prior to grading but rather 10 years or so ago. Too many folks ripped off on eBay and few would complain or make returns because “he’s one of the legends of the hobby” crap. He took that as a license to steal. Enough said.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

I don’t need to quote everything

I’m not referring to the good old days prior to grading but rather 10 years or so ago. Too many folks ripped off on eBay and few would complain or make returns because “he’s one of the legends of the hobby” crap. He took that as a license to steal. Enough said.

I hope he sues your ass.

[Exhibitman]

Many of the pioneering dealers were surly, grumpy or just rude to collectors. These men just were not meant for a face to face business model. Mail order was more their speed. Goodwin Goldfadden, another famed early dealer, was horrible to kids and novices especially. Not really surprising since what they were doing was considered weird and perhaps a bit skeevy by the 99.9995% of Americans who had no idea there were card collectors. Same was true of a lot of other collectibles pioneering professionals: the people who gravitated towards those activities were not doing so because of their great social skills. Comic book shop operators, for example. This comic book dealer wasn't a card dealer but could've been and eventually was:



Or try an early Star Trek convention if you want to see some socially deficient people. I know because I was one of them...



As for when it became about the money, thank this guy:



His move from coins to cards was the best and worst thing that ever happened.

[Hankphenom]

As I remember it, dealers at the early shows and on the phone were the same mix of humanity you get anywhere, from the barely civil to the warm and helpful. In my one interaction with Mr. Mint, he was rude and I never spoke to him again. For several years, I would visit his table to say hello and chat with his helper ("The Exhibit Man,"--Steve Reeves, who had a shop in Kensington, Md, I frequented) and Rosen would never even look over. He would sit there with nothing to do looking in the opposite direction once he had seen that I didn't have anything to sell, just to be an asshole. I did enjoy watching him peel off hundred dollar bills, however, faster than the eye could follow, and remember feeling sorry for those who happened into his lair with their boxes full of stuff I knew they could do much better with at practically any other table at the show.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

I don’t need to quote everything

I’m not referring to the good old days prior to grading but rather 10 years or so ago. Too many folks ripped off on eBay and few would complain or make returns because “he’s one of the legends of the hobby” crap. He took that as a license to steal. Enough said.

If someone didn't look at the picture or return the card, that is on them, not the seller and it is not stealing. One poster grades the HoF Wagner and EX+, I grade it as VG, it has paper loss on two corners. It is one of the nicer Wagner's, but it is still VG. That doesn't imply anything negative, we just have different grading standards.

I would say the same about PSA and the other grading companies. I often disagree with the grades they assign to cards. I have had cards in the same submission that I have felt were undergraded while having a card I thought was overgraded. When buying I look at the scan. If I don't feel the grade by the TPG is correct, I pass on the card. It doesn't matter if it is Lew Lipset, who I bought quite of few cards from both at shows and thru the mail, or some new dealer that I have never done business with. With raw cards I have no problem returning a card if the condition isn't reflected in the picture and description.

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by rats60

If someone didn't look at the picture or return the card, that is on them, not the seller and it is not stealing. One poster grades the HoF Wagner and EX+, I grade it as VG, it has paper loss on two corners. It is one of the nicer Wagner's, but it is still VG. That doesn't imply anything negative, we just have different grading standards.

VG? Wow, it looks nicer than that to me, unless it has wrinkle that I am not seeing. I wish that all of my VG cards looked like that.

[Dpeck100]

So trimming in 1981 was perfectly acceptable?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

VG? Wow, it looks nicer than that to me, unless it has wrinkle that I am not seeing. I wish that all of my VG cards looked like that.

Do you not see the top layer of paper is missing on two of the corners?

[Fred]

Originally Posted by chriskim

Come on guys!... pls don't flop this thread to against Mr. Lew Lipset. Lew is one of the legend!

Chris,

I'm going to guess that most people making comments about Lew's grading and auction lot description accuracy are not trying to "dis" Lew. Most of us have the utmost respect for him. I continued to bid on items in his auctions even though I've won lots in the past that were "generously" graded and in one case a complete set that was missing 6 cards (out of a set with less than 200 cards - none of the missing cards were key cards).

Lew has contributed so much to the hobby that a lot of us just let it go. Besides, if we really were that aghast of his lot descriptions, we could easily just not bid on things. As for being grumpy, I can see it, but he always seemed willing to spend a little time on the phone (as long it wasn't in the middle of the last day of an auction) to go over questions people would have.

It'd be interesting to know when hobbyists believe the hobby just turned to crap and was more about the Benjamins.

That auction description was such a cool start of a thread - brought back some fun memories.