Trout v. Legendary cards

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Tabe

So baseball is the one sport where training, conditioning, information, and skill level have NOT improved over the last 70 years? C'mon.

So you are implying that Williams would be even better with modern training, conditioning, and information available, are you not?

You can't just drop a player from one era into another without applying all the factors that got that player to the major leagues and what kept him there. If you want to drop Trout into the 1940s (or any era), they you need to consider how much less of the modern advantage that players now have. Does Trout have the time and the ability to hone his skills if he has to work when he's 14? Or during the off season? Or get stuck in the minors for a few years? Similarly dropping Williams into today's game. Are you applying those same advantages and disadvantages to Williams (or anyone)?

Bottom line... trying to prove player A from one era is better than player B from another era isn't foolproof.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by tschock

So you are implying that Williams would be even better with modern training, conditioning, and information available, are you not?

No, what I said was that baseball today is harder than it was in 1940 or 1950. That's an undeniable fact. The overall skill level of all involved is waaay higher than it was in 1950. That means that the game itself is more difficult.

Put another way: In the 1960s, Ray Oyler managed to play several years while hitting .175 for his career in over 1200 ABs with zero power. There is absolutely zero chance of a guy doing that today. Not a chance. Despite there being 14 more teams, there's no room for a guy that simply can't hit. He hit .135 playing full-time for a world champion in 1968. Would that happen today? Not a chance. Why? Because the requirements and skill level for modern MLB are that much higher.

So, again, we're not talking training or whatever, we're talking the end results of that training. And that is that the game today is much harder than it was in 1940 or 1950.

And, no, there's not a chance in the world Ted hits .400 today. If he could today, how come he never did it again after 1941?

[Touch'EmAll]

Correction taken, thank you. Ryan's pitch was timed at 10 ft. in front of home plate instead of at home plate (I was off by 10 ft. in prior post). However, today's clockings are taken when the pitch leaves the pitchers hand. Remember there is about 60 ft. between pitchers mound and home plate. Two articles I just read says Ryan's pitch would calculate out to 108.5 mph if based on today's clocking measurements - still good enough to be best ever, and remain in Guiness Book records.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Tabe

And, no, there's not a chance in the world Ted hits .400 today. If he could today, how come he never did it again after 1941?

Dude, do your research. Williams missed 5 years of baseball, 3 in his prime, due to military service. Possibly one reason he didn’t hit .400 after ‘41. I don’t know for certain if he’d hit that mark again, but I do know it’s hard to hit a fastball from the cockpit of a plane.

[Exhibitman]

Ted's .388 in 1957 at the age of 38 is insane.

Re the talent pool, don't forget player choice. Hundreds of the best athletes now end up playing football, basketball, soccer, hockey and even tennis.

One more thing on the art of batting that has been touched on but is really important is inside pitching. The way these guys today dig in, prep and take time in the box...never happened in the old days. As Dizzy Dean once yelled to a batter digging his spikes in the batter's box: “Dig yourself a nice hole, son – cuz ole Diz is gonna BURY you in it!” You come into LA you are going to get Drysdale, St. Louis you get Gibson. And so on. Lots of inside pitching that just doesn't happen today. Joe Kelly throws at a few of the cheating Astros and he gets a major suspension.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

Dude, do your research. Williams missed 5 years of baseball, 3 in his prime, due to military service. Possibly one reason he didn’t hit .400 after ‘41. I don’t know for certain if he’d hit that mark again, but I do know it’s hard to hit a fastball from the cockpit of a plane.

He had 13 more seasons after ww2 in which he played yet never really came close to .400 (by close, I mean was at like .395 the last week of the year).

He played 17 full seasons, hit .400 once, but you're certain he would hit over .400 when no one who played 120 games has come close (see above) to doing since? Yeah, I'm joy buying it.

Now, just so there's no doubt, I think Ted was an INCREDIBLE player, probably top 10 all-time. But, yeah, his yearly numbers for average would go down in this era.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by Tabe

He had 13 more seasons after ww2 in which he played yet never really came close to .400 (by close, I mean was at like .395 the last week of the year).



He played 17 full seasons, hit .400 once, but you're certain he would hit over .400 when no one who played 120 games has come close (see above) to doing since? era.

Really? Tony Gwynn in 1994.

To me, hitting .400 is still possible. Miggy's Triple Crown a few years back is evidence that some of these rare achievements are still possible. Today's players have traded average for power. It's what managers and general managers are asking of them. If a good hitter today wanted to pursue 400, I believe it's possible.

This reminds me of the Ty Cobb fanatics on this board that talk about how Ty Cobb could have hit more home runs if he wanted to, but he chose not to. Players have to choose a style, and that style allows them to pursue certain accolades. It also stops them from pursuing others.

https://www.mlb.com/news/featured/to...-average-chase

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by todeen

Really? Tony Gwynn in 1994.

To me, hitting .400 is still possible. Miggy's Triple Crown a few years back is evidence that some of these rare achievements are still possible. Today's players have traded average for power. It's what managers and general managers are asking of them. If a good hitter today wanted to pursue 400, I believe it's possible.

This reminds me of the Ty Cobb fanatics on this board that talk about how Ty Cobb could have hit more home runs if he wanted to, but he chose not to. Players have to choose a style, and that style allows them to pursue certain accolades. It also stops them from pursuing others.

https://www.mlb.com/news/featured/to...-average-chase

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

I don't doubt that "someone" will hit .400 again...someday...BUT...ICHIRO would have been my pick to do over anyone in recent times...and he couldn't!

[todeen]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I don't doubt that "someone" will hit .400 again...someday...BUT...ICHIRO would have been my pick to do over anyone in recent times...and he couldn't!

I'm from WA State, love Ichiro. At what point does playing for a crappy team like Seattle suck away some of your talent? I'm thinking of Joey Votto too.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I don't doubt that "someone" will hit .400 again...someday...BUT...ICHIRO would have been my pick to do over anyone in recent times...and he couldn't!

Believe it or not walks are an enormous help in hitting .400. Ichiro didn't walk nearly enough.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by todeen

Really? Tony Gwynn in 1994.

To me, hitting .400 is still possible. Miggy's Triple Crown a few years back is evidence that some of these rare achievements are still possible. Today's players have traded average for power. It's what managers and general managers are asking of them. If a good hitter today wanted to pursue 400, I believe it's possible.

This reminds me of the Ty Cobb fanatics on this board that talk about how Ty Cobb could have hit more home runs if he wanted to, but he chose not to. Players have to choose a style, and that style allows them to pursue certain accolades. It also stops them from pursuing others.

https://www.mlb.com/news/featured/to...-average-chase

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

I loved listening to Tony Gwynn talk about hitting, but his .394 year was two-thirds of a season.

[Exhibitman]

Brett hit .390 in 1980, but everyone seems to forget it. No one will forget this though:

https://youtu.be/i-TMV8Yz9wo

[todeen]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I loved listening to Tony Gwynn talk about hitting, but his .394 year was two-thirds of a season.

+1 some people understand something so well, it's energetic to watch them talk about it.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by todeen

Really? Tony Gwynn in 1994.

How many games did Gwynn play in 1994? I said no one who played 120 games. I also said hitting .395 or above in the last week. Gwynn never got to .395 at all after his 31st game and only played 110 games.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by Tabe

How many games did Gwynn play in 1994? I said no one who played 120 games. I also said hitting .395 or above in the last week. Gwynn never got to .395 at all after his 31st game and only played 110 games.

You made so many exceptions to exclude Gwynn to prove your point. He should be pointed out as having a legitimate shot in the strike shortened season. My argument is simply that these achievements of yesteryear are still achievable if that's what a player's style allows. Miggy won the Triple Crown, which many people thought would be extremely difficult. Not many HR leaders in today's game are also the BA leaders. But Cabrera did it. And Gwynn was hitting .394 in AUGUST! WOW! It deserves to be pointed out.