Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Robbie

The great Ernie Banks described what it was like to face Koufax. “It was frightening. He had that tremendous fastball that would rise,

Given that it's literally impossible for a fastball to rise, please forgive me if I take this with a grain of salt.

Originally Posted by Robbie

Randy Johnson was 9 or 10 inches taller than Sandy Koufax. So, even though Koufax pitched on a mound that was as much as 5 inches higher than the modern mound, Randy Johnson had the advantage of a much higher release point than Sandy Koufax. So, Johnson was taller, had longer arms, and released the ball at a point much closer to the plate.

Should Randy Johnson be considered greater because of the advantage of his height, or should Koufax be considered greater because he did not have the same advantages?

Sandy Koufax threw the ball as hard or harder than Randy Johnson did, but 35 years earlier… without the specialized training techniques, coaching, science on mechanics, health and other advances, and modern day pampering.

1) This is laughable. C'mon. Surely you can see the difference between height and a different pitching mound?

2) You don't know that Koufax threw harder than Johnson.


Of course guys like Aaron, Banks, Mays, and so on are going to be biased toward Koufax. How come you're not quoting Wade Boggs or Tony Gwynn or Will Clark?

[cammb]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Given that it's literally impossible for a fastball to rise, please forgive me if I take this with a grain of salt.


1) This is laughable. C'mon. Surely you can see the difference between height and a different pitching mound?

2) You don't know that Koufax threw harder than Johnson.


Of course guys like Aaron, Banks, Mays, and so on are going to be biased toward Koufax. How come you're not quoting Wade Boggs or Tony Gwynn or Will Clark?

Because they never faced Koufax. Duh

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by cammb

Because they never faced Koufax. Duh

But Mays, Aaron and Banks faced Grove and Randy Johnson? News to me.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Tabe

But Mays, Aaron and Banks faced Grove and Randy Johnson? News to me.

Got to play by the rules, anecdotal evidence proves Koufax is the best and is superior to data; anecdotal evidence for others is irrelevant since they didn’t face Koufax.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by G1911

Got to play by the rules, anecdotal evidence proves Koufax is the best and is superior to data; anecdotal evidence for others is irrelevant since they didn’t face Koufax.

Whoops, my bad. Thanks.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by Tabe

1) This is laughable. C'mon. Surely you can see the difference between height and a different pitching mound?

I sure can. That's the point. Koufax had more talent. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Tabe

Of course guys like Aaron, Banks, Mays, and so on are going to be biased toward Koufax. How come you're not quoting Wade Boggs or Tony Gwynn or Will Clark?

How do you know that Wade Boggs, Tony Gwynn, Will Clark, and even Steve Balboni would not agree with Frank Robinson, Aaron, Mays, McCovey, Banks, Stargell, and other losers like that?

Have you ever heard Tony Gwynn say there was a greater left handed pitcher than Sandy Koufax? I grew up in SoCal, and I haven't. That does not mean he did not comment otherwise, however I think he would agree with Aaron, Mays, etc...

Anyway, I would love to hear a conversation between Willie McCovey (RIP) and Will Clark... It would likely go something like this...

CLARK: Hey Willie, what was it like hitting against Koufax?

McCOVEY: Pretty impossible. Getting a piece of a pitch was a victory. I was only able to manage a lifetime .148 batting average against Koufax.

CLARK: Well guys like you, Mays, Aaron, and Banks just don't know how to hit. You should really watch some film on me, Wade Boggs and Steve Balboni to see how real players do it! I would have hit at least .200 against a scrub like Koufax, Boggs would do so well that he would be known for more than riding a horse in Yankee Stadium, and Balboni would have hit an inside-the-park single.

McCOVEY: Thanks for the advice, Will.


In other words... Are you seriously putting up the opinions of Wade Boggs, and Will Clark at the same stature and weight as Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Frank Robinson, Ernie Banks, Willie McCovey, etc, etc.? Tony Gwynn...okay. Those other guys? Pleeeeeeeeeeeze!

[Jim65]

The most unreliable way to judge a player is from someone elses opinion. Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they almost always stink.

Bob Uecker's career BA against Koufax was .429, if Uecker said Koufax was easy to hit against, would you believe him?

Ralph Kiner said Ewell Blackwell was the toughest pitcher he ever faced, does anyone believe that Blackwell was an all-time great?

No because stats are facts, not opinions.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Jim65

The most unreliable way to judge a player is from someone elses opinion. Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they almost always stink.

Bob Uecker's career BA against Koufax was .429, if Uecker said Koufax was easy to hit against, would you believe him?

Ralph Kiner said Ewell Blackwell was the toughest pitcher he ever faced, does anyone believe that Blackwell was an all-time great?

No because stats are facts, not opinions.

Exactly. I'm sure Sandy's mother thought he was the best.... maybe her opinion should be used as fact.
STATS are STATS for a reason.
Otherwise, flip a coin to make your decisions. It's just as reliable and relevant as someone's opinion.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Jim65

The most unreliable way to judge a player is from someone elses opinion. Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they almost always stink.

Bob Uecker's career BA against Koufax was .429, if Uecker said Koufax was easy to hit against, would you believe him?

Ralph Kiner said Ewell Blackwell was the toughest pitcher he ever faced, does anyone believe that Blackwell was an all-time great?

No because stats are facts, not opinions.

Then I guess you reject all advanced metrics because those are all statistical models based on the designer’s opinion. It is a good thing that Koufax has the stats to back up being called the greatest lefty of all time. Grove on the other hand doesn’t, he just has opinions of some who have made models.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by rats60

Then I guess you reject all advanced metrics because those are all statistical models based on the designer’s opinion. It is a good thing that Koufax has the stats to back up being called the greatest lefty of all time. Grove on the other hand doesn’t, he just has opinions of some who have made models.

I don't reject or accept all advanced metrics. They are a tool. Everything has flaws but opinions have more flaws than all stats put together.

I never made an argument for Grove, I voted for Randy Johnson, who I actually saw pitch many many times.

[Frank A]

This is a game of wins and losses. All the rest of these dumb stats mean nothing. So sick and tired about hearing all this other crap when the game comes down to wins and losses. All these stat guys should step back and take a break from this nonsense.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Frank A

This is a game of wins and losses. All the rest of these dumb stats mean nothing. So sick and tired about hearing all this other crap when the game comes down to wins and losses. All these stat guys should step back and take a break from this nonsense.

Pitcher Wins are a meaningless stat. If a pitcher gives up 8 runs and wins because his team scored 9, do you think that pitcher is better than a guy who pitches a complete game and loses 1-0?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Pitcher Wins are a meaningless stat. If a pitcher gives up 8 runs and wins because his team scored 9, do you think that pitcher is better than a guy who pitches a complete game and loses 1-0?

depends...if lose a bunch of 3-2 games and you have an elite offense why is the other pitcher you are going against constantly beat you

Also if i am up 8-0, may give up a 4 runs to assure no huge inning to get the win and now my era is higher than that 3-2 game pitcher that always loses..

[Greg Sonk]

Originally Posted by rats60

Then I guess you reject all advanced metrics because those are all statistical models based on the designer’s opinion. It is a good thing that Koufax has the stats to back up being called the greatest lefty of all time. Grove on the other hand doesn’t, he just has opinions of some who have made models.

The key difference here is that in one case, someone creating a metric set out to reflect what happens on a baseball field separately from their opinions of any individual player. This is exactly why we have stats like FIP-, ERA+ or any other adjusted pitching metric you prefer. You're attempting to contextualize and consider all of baseball history with a relatively equal slant. You would expect that to be seen as a good thing on a pre-war baseball board rather than someone trying to play the "real stats" card that went out with Duran Duran.

When you ask a player the same question, you're overwhelmingly likely to get either someone they played against or idolized as a kid. More often than not, they're also basing this on what they personally experienced rather than the total package. In the days before video rooms, what percentage of Koufax's pitches do you think Player X saw?

To be clear, I'm not blaming players for any of this. That's human nature. But to be blunt, player evaluation skills don't necessarily overlap with playing skills. There's a reason baseball front offices hiring pools have undergone a seismic shift.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Greg Sonk

The key difference here is that in one case, someone creating a metric set out to reflect what happens on a baseball field separately from their opinions of any individual player. This is exactly why we have stats like FIP-, ERA+ or any other adjusted pitching metric you prefer. You're attempting to contextualize and consider all of baseball history with a relatively equal slant. You would expect that to be seen as a good thing on a pre-war baseball board rather than someone trying to play the "real stats" card that went out with Duran Duran.

When you ask a player the same question, you're overwhelmingly likely to get either someone they played against or idolized as a kid. More often than not, they're also basing this on what they personally experienced rather than the total package. In the days before video rooms, what percentage of Koufax's pitches do you think Player X saw?

To be clear, I'm not blaming players for any of this. That's human nature. But to be blunt, player evaluation skills don't necessarily overlap with playing skills. There's a reason baseball front offices hiring pools have undergone a seismic shift.

There is no difference. It is still opinion. fWAR doesn't agree with bWAR. Bill James has Win Shares. Others have their own metrics. It is all personal opinions. Trying to claim that someone else can't use their or other's opinions doesn't work when you are doing the same. Especially when there is no transparency in those opinions.

[matthew]

Johan Santana was pretty nasty for several years in the 00s. Was he the best ever, probably not. He did have a great run that would rival previously mentioned player's best 5 seasons.

Kershaw is pretty amazing as well as far as a player we all have been able to see pitch. I hope there is some baseball still yet to see this year

I think Koufax's MLB career might look a little different if he'd had a few years in the minors

Great question. I have enjoyed reading the thread. For a World Series or complete season Koufax is a compelling choice. For a career I still love me some Spahn.

[Greg Sonk]

Originally Posted by rats60

There is no difference. It is still opinion. fWAR doesn't agree with bWAR. Bill James has Win Shares. Others have their own metrics. It is all personal opinions. Trying to claim that someone else can't use their or other's opinions doesn't work when you are doing the same. Especially when there is no transparency in those opinions.

You’re blankety white-washing every opinion as equally wrong. No one is telling you that you cannot think X was best. That’s what makes open discussions fun. But you’re lashing out at everything at once with no focus.

To be clear, I don’t think sorting a column by bWAR or fWAR is the proper answer to anything. We do know that many of the newer metrics are more equipped to express what happens on the field that things like Batting Average or how Fielding Percentage skews for and against certain attributes.. Key here is that the bar for usefulness is not 100% accuracy. As the saying goes, “All models are wrong, some are just useful.”

What is your specific transparency issue here?

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by rats60

Then I guess you reject all advanced metrics because those are all statistical models based on the designer’s opinion. It is a good thing that Koufax has the stats to back up being called the greatest lefty of all time. Grove on the other hand doesn’t, he just has opinions of some who have made models.

It probably got buried way up in the thread, but I asked you specifically which stats you trust/value and which you don't, if perhaps you could answer?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

It probably got buried way up in the thread, but I asked you specifically which stats you trust/value and which you don't, if perhaps you could answer?

ERA, WHIP and FIP. I have problems with other stats as they are often misused and don't translate well across eras (or positions for WAR).

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by Jim65

The most unreliable way to judge a player is from someone elses opinion. Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they almost always stink.

Bob Uecker's career BA against Koufax was .429, if Uecker said Koufax was easy to hit against, would you believe him?

Ralph Kiner said Ewell Blackwell was the toughest pitcher he ever faced, does anyone believe that Blackwell was an all-time great?

No because stats are facts, not opinions.

Well, if I ever needed a life or death medical opinion, I will take the top Doctors at The Mayo Clinic or John Hopkins... but you should go to a $5 Fortune Teller..... since "opinions are like assholes..." Yes, a bit of a harsh example, but the point is that the quality of an opinion means everything.


Statistics have been USED AS A TOOL TO SUPPORT OPINIONS since the beginning of human's ability for creative thinking.

So... let's keep arguing, because....
My stats are better than your stats!

[Mark17]

If you go with Koufax, you have to put up with 7 years of mediocrity (54-53 record, which averages fewer than 8 wins a year.) Johnson gives you 5 years of non-greatness. But if you take Grove or Spahn, you have a 20-game winner in their 3rd season, and quality and longevity from then on.

I know Koufax, in his prime, was dominant, but the Dodgers needed the rest of the staff to carry him for the first 7 years of his career. That's a long time to be average, for a guy some want to call the best ever.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Mark17

If you go with Koufax, you have to put up with 7 years of mediocrity (54-53 record, which averages fewer than 8 wins a year.) Johnson gives you 5 years of non-greatness. But if you take Grove or Spahn, you have a 20-game winner in their 3rd season, and quality and longevity from then on.

I know Koufax, in his prime, was dominant, but the Dodgers needed the rest of the staff to carry him for the first 7 years of his career. That's a long time to be average, for a guy some want to call the best ever.

This! And many others who have said basically the same thing. If you want to say the best ever (with no qualifiers), you imply their entire career. Otherwise why is the assumed cutoff to be 5 years (of 10+)? Why not 4, or 3? If you want to debate who had the best 5 year span, that's an entirely different question.

If you are looking at the entire career, Koufax was not the best ever. And as someone else has said here. Case closed!

[riggs336]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Ralph Kiner said Ewell Blackwell was the toughest pitcher he ever faced, does anyone believe that Blackwell was an all-time great?

No because stats are facts, not opinions.

Peewee Reese also named Blackwell as the toughest he faced. Evidently he wasn't called "The Whip" for nothing.
I'm a huge fan of both Spahn and Koufax, but put me in the Lefty Grove column.

[cammb]

I don’t think pee wee Reese ever faced Koufax

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by cammb

I don’t think pee wee Reese ever faced Koufax

Here's a nice anecdote from Jane Leavy's book, where she quotes something Pee Wee Reese wrote near the end of his life:

'To be honest about it, I thought the guy would never be a great pitcher. But he sure proved me wrong. When I retired and I was announcing the CBS Game of the Week, I came up to him while he was warming up. And he was really making the catcher's mitt pop. So I went up and asked him, teasing him, "Where in the hell did you learn how to pitch like that? You can't be that damn good."

'He said, "Grab a bat and get your ass up there at the plate." So I did. Here I am standing with a bat in my hand in my street clothes and I never saw anybody throw that hard in my life, and I've faced some of the greatest in the game. He had pinpoint control. I said, "How is your control on the outside part of the plate?" I was amazed. He then said, "Do you want me to show you how good my control is inside?"

'I said, "Hell, no."'

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by jgannon

Here's a nice anecdote from Jane Leavy's book, where she quotes something Pee Wee Reese wrote near the end of his life:

'To be honest about it, I thought the guy would never be a great pitcher. But he sure proved me wrong. When I retired and I was announcing the CBS Game of the Week, I came up to him while he was warming up. And he was really making the catcher's mitt pop. So I went up and asked him, teasing him, "Where in the hell did you learn how to pitch like that? You can't be that damn good."

'He said, "Grab a bat and get your ass up there at the plate." So I did. Here I am standing with a bat in my hand in my street clothes and I never saw anybody throw that hard in my life, and I've faced some of the greatest in the game. He had pinpoint control. I said, "How is your control on the outside part of the plate?" I was amazed. He then said, "Do you want me to show you how good my control is inside?"

'I said, "Hell, no."'

Yeaaaaah....I'm gonna go with "stories that never happened for $500, please, Alex."

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Robbie

In other words... Are you seriously putting up the opinions of Wade Boggs, and Will Clark at the same stature and weight as Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Frank Robinson, Ernie Banks, Willie McCovey, etc, etc.? Tony Gwynn...okay. Those other guys? Pleeeeeeeeeeeze!

Wade Boggs? Absolutely. Yeah, I'm going to listen to a guy who hit .356 - combined - his first 7 years in the majors.

Will Clark was just a name I thought of when trying to think of a left-handed hitter who played during Randy Johnson's career.

The point was to select some top guys who played against Johnson but not Koufax. Guys are ALWAYS going to have a bias toward the players they played with/against and not guys they only saw. And they're ALWAYS going to remember just the top part of their career not the other parts. When somebody talks about how tough Greg Maddux was to hit, they are ignoring the latter part of his career where he got lit up frequently. That's what Mays/Aaron/etc are doing.

It's hypocritical to uncritically accept the opinions of Mays & Aaron because they played against Koufax and not Johnson but not accept the (potential) opinions of guys who played against Johnson but not Koufax.

[7nohitter]

Bruce Hurst. That 12-6 curve was devastating.