Slightly OT: Could the Braves and Indians be next?

[G1911]

As I am not criticizing any person, company, etc. I thought I was following the rules. As I understand it, one is allowed to have an opinion different from yourself. I'm not even criticizing Packs, I just disagree. As I understand the rules, you can't remain private as you are accusing me of "cowardly crap", etc., but I am allowed to have an opinion contrary to yours.

If I am breaking the rules I apologize and will delete, but then other folks are not allowed to do it either, who do not seem to be so aggressively 'called out'.

I don't see why you feel a need to dox me or argue on the phone? I tend to think of these matters as being about ideas, not about ad hominems and personal attacks (which is why I'm not making them). Perhaps I have a minority view here too.

The reason I prefer to stay private, though none of your business really, is, largely, that we are all posting about valuable collectibles here, it can be read by anyone, and it is very easy to ID members home addresses with their full names.

EDIT: There, they've been removed just for you. That you want to start an altercation over the phone with Cliff, a gentleman I don't know besides our very public chats on some Topps variations and his discovery of 66 Topps high number miscuts as a group sheet-recreation project (thank you for sharing, sir!), about what a "coward" and "garbage" I am because I have an opinion different from yours, is another excellent reason that I don't want you to have my personally identifying information to track me down. This is ridiculous.

[ElCabron]

It’s up to Leon. Normally people too cowardly to put their name behind their words aren’t allowed to post on anything that’s the least bit controversial, but maybe things have changed. No one wants to know your address or whatever else you’re afraid of. But if you’re too afraid to put your name out there because of your amazing collection that is better than all of the other people on this board who post their names, then maybe you should STFU?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

It’s up to Leon. Normally people too cowardly to put their name behind their words aren’t allowed to post on anything that’s the least bit controversial, but maybe things have changed. No one wants to know your address or whatever else you’re afraid of. But if you’re too afraid to put your name out there because of your amazing collection that is better than all of the other people on this board who post their names, then maybe you should STFU?

I'm pretty sure insults like this are also against the rules. I expect this to be enforced with the other posters who agree with you but have committed the same sin. Your hostility, insults, anger and inability to speak in a civil manner over somebody not having your opinion is not "grown up".

[williamcohon]

I think the names need to be changed. Some of the previous posts talked about not seeing racism. Others made the point that any transgressions happened long ago. It dawns on me that that’s probably true. Many states drove all their tribes out a long time ago. Only Indian names remain as a reminder of the sad history. In such circumstances, it would be easy to feel a disconnect, and be impatient with those who want to stir things up by changing team names.

Here where I live, a little north of Seattle, in Washington State, there are numerous reservations. I see Native Americans every day. The tribes hold written agreements and treaties that our federal government has failed to honor. The grievances are not tales from long ago. They are current, and they are raw. Reducing people to a cultural stereotype, and using that stereotype as a team mascot, is demeaning.

Don’t think so? Well how would it be if the name were changed to the Washington Honkies?

As for the Indians and the Braves, yes - they’re next. I suggest the Cleveland Engines. The name hardly changes, yet offends no one.

And the Atlanta Breves also hardly changes anything, but avoids insult. If you visit Starbucks, you probably know that a Breve is a drink with half-and-half. And all you musicians know that a breve is a note that lasts eight beats.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by williamcohon

I think the names need to be changed. Some of the previous posts talked about not seeing racism. Others made the point that any transgressions happened long ago. It dawns on me that that’s probably true. Many states drove all their tribes out a long time ago. Only Indian names remain as a reminder of the sad history. In such circumstances, it would be easy to feel a disconnect, and be impatient with those who want to stir things up by changing team names.

Here where I live, a little north of Seattle, in Washington State, there are numerous reservations. I see Native Americans every day. The tribes hold written agreements and treaties that our federal government has failed to honor. The grievances are not tales from long ago. They are current, and they are raw. Reducing people to a cultural stereotype, and using that stereotype as a team mascot, is demeaning.

Not only are the grievances from "not tales from long ago", they are current. The Supreme Court just rules *last week* that half of the state of Oklahoma is now considered reservation because the federal government failed to honor their treaties.

Last. Week.

[Tabe]

For the record, I have no problem with the removal of Confederate statues. Never understood why you would put up statues to honor traitors that lost while fighting AGAINST the United States. We don't put up statues for Mussolini or King George III...

[david_l]

Originally Posted by Tabe

For the record, I have no problem with the removal of Confederate statues. Never understood why you would put up statues to honor traitors that lost while fighting AGAINST the United States. We don't put up statues for Mussolini or King George III...

Totally agree.

The Confederate statues were put up as a show of white supremacy and to intimidate people of color. Most were put up in the first couple of decades of the 20th Century.

They were a show of intimidation. Not honor. Their message is clear as day. If anyone disagrees with me please do some research before touting your “beliefs.”

-D Lu$ti$

[todeen]

Originally Posted by williamcohon

I think the names need to be changed. Some of the previous posts talked about not seeing racism. Others made the point that any transgressions happened long ago. It dawns on me that that’s probably true. Many states drove all their tribes out a long time ago. Only Indian names remain as a reminder of the sad history. In such circumstances, it would be easy to feel a disconnect, and be impatient with those who want to stir things up by changing team names.



Here where I live, a little north of Seattle, in Washington State, there are numerous reservations. I see Native Americans every day. The tribes hold written agreements and treaties that our federal government has failed to honor. The grievances are not tales from long ago. They are current, and they are raw. Reducing people to a cultural stereotype, and using that stereotype as a team mascot, is demeaning.

+1

Lived in Spokane, WA. The local MiLB team, the Indians, work very closely with the local tribe. Jerseys sometimes include the team name written in their dialect, or salmon - an important symbol for local natives. They are a really good example of how to handle culturally sensitive topics with respect, and showing dignity to a group that has often been marginalized.

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[Tabe]

I am a season ticketholder for the Spokane Indians. Have been a regular at games for 22 years since moving to Spokane. The team is truly the poster child for how to handle this stuff. Roughly a decade ago, the topic of possibly changing the team name came up and they reached out to the local tribe. That tribe, whose official name is the Spokane Tribe of Indians, told them not to change the name. From there a conversation ensued on how to best honor the tribe. The result, as described above, has been the incorporation of Salish writing into the team logos and wordmarks. There is a display in the concourse of tribe-related information and material. When Spokane hosted the All-Star game a few years ago, they had a tribal drumming demonstration as part of the festivities. Everything they've done has been respectful and in consultation with the tribe.

[Aj-hman]

Originally Posted by Tabe

I am a season ticketholder for the Spokane Indians. Have been a regular at games for 22 years since moving to Spokane. The team is truly the poster child for how to handle this stuff. Roughly a decade ago, the topic of possibly changing the team name came up and they reached out to the local tribe. That tribe, whose official name is the Spokane Tribe of Indians, told them not to change the name. From there a conversation ensued on how to best honor the tribe. The result, as described above, has been the incorporation of Salish writing into the team logos and wordmarks. There is a display in the concourse of tribe-related information and material. When Spokane hosted the All-Star game a few years ago, they had a tribal drumming demonstration as part of the festivities. Everything they've done has been respectful and in consultation with the tribe.

I am glad there is a model that the pro teams could adopt.

Aaron

[todeen]

Originally Posted by Tabe

I am a season ticketholder for the Spokane Indians. Have been a regular at games for 22 years since moving to Spokane. The team is truly the poster child for how to handle this stuff. Roughly a decade ago, the topic of possibly changing the team name came up and they reached out to the local tribe. That tribe, whose official name is the Spokane Tribe of Indians, told them not to change the name. From there a conversation ensued on how to best honor the tribe. The result, as described above, has been the incorporation of Salish writing into the team logos and wordmarks. There is a display in the concourse of tribe-related information and material. When Spokane hosted the All-Star game a few years ago, they had a tribal drumming demonstration as part of the festivities. Everything they've done has been respectful and in consultation with the tribe.

Let's not forget to give a shout out to George Brett and his brother, owners of the team.

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[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Tabe

I am a season ticketholder for the Spokane Indians. Have been a regular at games for 22 years since moving to Spokane. The team is truly the poster child for how to handle this stuff. Roughly a decade ago, the topic of possibly changing the team name came up and they reached out to the local tribe. That tribe, whose official name is the Spokane Tribe of Indians, told them not to change the name. From there a conversation ensued on how to best honor the tribe. The result, as described above, has been the incorporation of Salish writing into the team logos and wordmarks. There is a display in the concourse of tribe-related information and material. When Spokane hosted the All-Star game a few years ago, they had a tribal drumming demonstration as part of the festivities. Everything they've done has been respectful and in consultation with the tribe.

Just talking to a good buddy here in Cleveland, we can't figure out why the Indians can't do this!!!!!!! We have trophy cases and rooms with plaques everywhere, why not dedicate a section to showing WHY we're the Indians, show some respect for the natives that preceded us? Work as a frickin' partnership.