Slightly OT: Could the Braves and Indians be next?

[williamcohon]

I think the names need to be changed. Some of the previous posts talked about not seeing racism. Others made the point that any transgressions happened long ago. It dawns on me that that’s probably true. Many states drove all their tribes out a long time ago. Only Indian names remain as a reminder of the sad history. In such circumstances, it would be easy to feel a disconnect, and be impatient with those who want to stir things up by changing team names.

Here where I live, a little north of Seattle, in Washington State, there are numerous reservations. I see Native Americans every day. The tribes hold written agreements and treaties that our federal government has failed to honor. The grievances are not tales from long ago. They are current, and they are raw. Reducing people to a cultural stereotype, and using that stereotype as a team mascot, is demeaning.

Don’t think so? Well how would it be if the name were changed to the Washington Honkies?

As for the Indians and the Braves, yes - they’re next. I suggest the Cleveland Engines. The name hardly changes, yet offends no one.

And the Atlanta Breves also hardly changes anything, but avoids insult. If you visit Starbucks, you probably know that a Breve is a drink with half-and-half. And all you musicians know that a breve is a note that lasts eight beats.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by williamcohon

I think the names need to be changed. Some of the previous posts talked about not seeing racism. Others made the point that any transgressions happened long ago. It dawns on me that that’s probably true. Many states drove all their tribes out a long time ago. Only Indian names remain as a reminder of the sad history. In such circumstances, it would be easy to feel a disconnect, and be impatient with those who want to stir things up by changing team names.

Here where I live, a little north of Seattle, in Washington State, there are numerous reservations. I see Native Americans every day. The tribes hold written agreements and treaties that our federal government has failed to honor. The grievances are not tales from long ago. They are current, and they are raw. Reducing people to a cultural stereotype, and using that stereotype as a team mascot, is demeaning.

Not only are the grievances from "not tales from long ago", they are current. The Supreme Court just rules *last week* that half of the state of Oklahoma is now considered reservation because the federal government failed to honor their treaties.

Last. Week.

[Tabe]

For the record, I have no problem with the removal of Confederate statues. Never understood why you would put up statues to honor traitors that lost while fighting AGAINST the United States. We don't put up statues for Mussolini or King George III...

[david_l]

Originally Posted by Tabe

For the record, I have no problem with the removal of Confederate statues. Never understood why you would put up statues to honor traitors that lost while fighting AGAINST the United States. We don't put up statues for Mussolini or King George III...

Totally agree.

The Confederate statues were put up as a show of white supremacy and to intimidate people of color. Most were put up in the first couple of decades of the 20th Century.

They were a show of intimidation. Not honor. Their message is clear as day. If anyone disagrees with me please do some research before touting your “beliefs.”

-D Lu$ti$

[Aj-hman]

Originally Posted by david_l

Totally agree.

The Confederate statues were put up as a show of white supremacy and to intimidate people of color. Most were put up in the first couple of decades of the 20th Century.

They were a show of intimidation. Not honor. Their message is clear as day. If anyone disagrees with me please do some research before touting your “beliefs.”

-D Lu$ti$

I respect history. If history is sanitized we loose important messages and are likely to repeat our mistakes. The original message of these monuments is clear; however today and in the future the real message, a sad chapter of our history, will hopefully not be repeated.
Respectfully,
Aaron Heineman

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Aj-hman

I respect history. If history is sanitized we loose important messages and are likely to repeat our mistakes. The original message of these monuments is clear; however today and in the future the real message, a sad chapter of our history, will hopefully not be repeated.
Respectfully,
Aaron Heineman

If the plaques on them were along the lines of (paraphrase), "Robert E Lee, traitorous leader of the Confederacy...blah blah blah", I could be persuaded to agree with you. But that's not what they were. They were statues to honor those leaders, tributes to them. Makes no sense.

Ditto for naming *military bases* after them. WTF. Do we have a Fort Rommel somewhere I'm not aware of?

[Aj-hman]

Originally Posted by G1911

Deleted for ElCabron's comfort

Originally Posted by Tabe

If the plaques on them were along the lines of (paraphrase), "Robert E Lee, traitorous leader of the Confederacy...blah blah blah", I could be persuaded to agree with you. But that's not what they were. They were statues to honor those leaders, tributes to them. Makes no sense.

Ditto for naming *military bases* after them. WTF. Do we have a Fort Rommel somewhere I'm not aware of?

as americans we have a complicated history.
the story below outlines a march of triumph over a bridge.
i cite the story to help better illustrate that we have the power over objects and what they mean today.

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/17/87968...s-wide-support

[todeen]

Originally Posted by williamcohon

I think the names need to be changed. Some of the previous posts talked about not seeing racism. Others made the point that any transgressions happened long ago. It dawns on me that that’s probably true. Many states drove all their tribes out a long time ago. Only Indian names remain as a reminder of the sad history. In such circumstances, it would be easy to feel a disconnect, and be impatient with those who want to stir things up by changing team names.



Here where I live, a little north of Seattle, in Washington State, there are numerous reservations. I see Native Americans every day. The tribes hold written agreements and treaties that our federal government has failed to honor. The grievances are not tales from long ago. They are current, and they are raw. Reducing people to a cultural stereotype, and using that stereotype as a team mascot, is demeaning.

+1

Lived in Spokane, WA. The local MiLB team, the Indians, work very closely with the local tribe. Jerseys sometimes include the team name written in their dialect, or salmon - an important symbol for local natives. They are a really good example of how to handle culturally sensitive topics with respect, and showing dignity to a group that has often been marginalized.

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[Tabe]

I am a season ticketholder for the Spokane Indians. Have been a regular at games for 22 years since moving to Spokane. The team is truly the poster child for how to handle this stuff. Roughly a decade ago, the topic of possibly changing the team name came up and they reached out to the local tribe. That tribe, whose official name is the Spokane Tribe of Indians, told them not to change the name. From there a conversation ensued on how to best honor the tribe. The result, as described above, has been the incorporation of Salish writing into the team logos and wordmarks. There is a display in the concourse of tribe-related information and material. When Spokane hosted the All-Star game a few years ago, they had a tribal drumming demonstration as part of the festivities. Everything they've done has been respectful and in consultation with the tribe.

[Aj-hman]

Originally Posted by Tabe

I am a season ticketholder for the Spokane Indians. Have been a regular at games for 22 years since moving to Spokane. The team is truly the poster child for how to handle this stuff. Roughly a decade ago, the topic of possibly changing the team name came up and they reached out to the local tribe. That tribe, whose official name is the Spokane Tribe of Indians, told them not to change the name. From there a conversation ensued on how to best honor the tribe. The result, as described above, has been the incorporation of Salish writing into the team logos and wordmarks. There is a display in the concourse of tribe-related information and material. When Spokane hosted the All-Star game a few years ago, they had a tribal drumming demonstration as part of the festivities. Everything they've done has been respectful and in consultation with the tribe.

I am glad there is a model that the pro teams could adopt.

Aaron

[todeen]

Originally Posted by Tabe

I am a season ticketholder for the Spokane Indians. Have been a regular at games for 22 years since moving to Spokane. The team is truly the poster child for how to handle this stuff. Roughly a decade ago, the topic of possibly changing the team name came up and they reached out to the local tribe. That tribe, whose official name is the Spokane Tribe of Indians, told them not to change the name. From there a conversation ensued on how to best honor the tribe. The result, as described above, has been the incorporation of Salish writing into the team logos and wordmarks. There is a display in the concourse of tribe-related information and material. When Spokane hosted the All-Star game a few years ago, they had a tribal drumming demonstration as part of the festivities. Everything they've done has been respectful and in consultation with the tribe.

Let's not forget to give a shout out to George Brett and his brother, owners of the team.

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[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Tabe

I am a season ticketholder for the Spokane Indians. Have been a regular at games for 22 years since moving to Spokane. The team is truly the poster child for how to handle this stuff. Roughly a decade ago, the topic of possibly changing the team name came up and they reached out to the local tribe. That tribe, whose official name is the Spokane Tribe of Indians, told them not to change the name. From there a conversation ensued on how to best honor the tribe. The result, as described above, has been the incorporation of Salish writing into the team logos and wordmarks. There is a display in the concourse of tribe-related information and material. When Spokane hosted the All-Star game a few years ago, they had a tribal drumming demonstration as part of the festivities. Everything they've done has been respectful and in consultation with the tribe.

Just talking to a good buddy here in Cleveland, we can't figure out why the Indians can't do this!!!!!!! We have trophy cases and rooms with plaques everywhere, why not dedicate a section to showing WHY we're the Indians, show some respect for the natives that preceded us? Work as a frickin' partnership.