Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by cammb

Randy Johnson was unanimous pick once. Koufax was unanimous pick 3 times in all of baseball not just one league. I rest my case

Forgive me, you keep resting your case but I'm not really sure what case you are trying to make. Stop dropping the mike and walking away without completing a thought. It looks like you are saying Koufax is better than Randy Johnson??

[cammb]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

Forgive me, you keep resting your case but I'm not really sure what case you are trying to make. Stop dropping the mike and walking away without completing a thought. It looks like you are saying Koufax is better than Randy Johnson??

Bingo!

[earlywynnfan]

So I dug out my Bill James Abstract to see his rankings. It's the 2001 version, so no Randy Johnson. He has Grove tops (#2 overall), then Spahn (5), and Koufax (10).
Then:
13 Hubbell
15 Carlton
22 Ford

[RCMcKenzie]

I picked Valenzuela because he was the best left-hander that I witnessed. I saw Carlton and Johnson, and they were also good.

Of the players I did not see, like Koufax, Sphan, Grove etc., the most eye-popping stats belong to Ed Morris.

Over a 3 year span, from 1884-1886, Morris was 114-57. He threw 1566 innings in those 3 seasons.

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I picked Valenzuela because he was the best left-hander that I witnessed. I saw Carlton and Johnson, and they were also good.

Of the players I did not see, like Koufax, Sphan, Grove etc., the most eye-popping stats belong to Ed Morris.

Over a 3 year span, from 1884-1886, Morris was 114-57. He threw 1566 innings in those 3 seasons.

So no one jumped on my Ruth suggestion but he had a three year span of about 2.00 average ERA, 20 wins a year and 300 innings a year. Then he went on to hit 714 home runs from the left side with over 2,200 RBI and a BA of .342 and OBP of .474 lifetime. That’s why he’s the greatest left handed ball player of all time.

Fernando? C’mon.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by Bram99

Fernando? C’mon.

What can I say. I have a very dry sense of humor.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Bram99

So no one jumped on my Ruth suggestion but he had a three year span of about 2.00 average ERA, 20 wins a year and 300 innings a year. Then he went on to hit 714 home runs from the left side with over 2,200 RBI and a BA of .342 and OBP of .474 lifetime. That’s why he’s the greatest left handed ball player of all time.

Fernando? C’mon.

What is there to say? Sure, he was the most valuable left handed player who pitched, but it seems to be missing the spirit of the question if not the exact verbiage. OP obviously was referring to the best as a pitcher, which is clearly not Ruth.

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by G1911

What is there to say? Sure, he was the most valuable left handed player who pitched, but it seems to be missing the spirit of the question if not the exact verbiage. OP obviously was referring to the best as a pitcher, which is clearly not Ruth.

Ok now I get it. My other choice was either going to be Einstein or Oprah.

[cammb]

I wonder how many of you mathematicians have seen Koufax pitch? I have and the players he pitched against say he was the best they had ever seen. The Yankees gave him accolades when they met in the World Series even commenting on his record of 25 and 5 stating "How did he loose 5 games?" I rest my case whether you like it or not

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by cammb

I wonder how many of you mathematicians have seen Koufax pitch? I have and the players he pitched against say he was the best they had ever seen. The Yankees gave him accolades when they met in the World Series even commenting on his record of 25 and 5 stating "How did he loose 5 games?" I rest my case whether you like it or not

How many of those yankees saw Grove pitch?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

How many of those yankees saw Grove pitch?

It amuses me that this kind of "evidence" is cited in support for Koufax and dismissed for everyone else (as it should be). Nobody faced all the lefties in discussion, and so "best I ever faced" is absolutely irrelevant to the question of who is best all time. Yet they keep dragging this horse out, because no mathematical arguments are really there.

Seperately,
I do not see how Valenzuela can possibly be ranked ahead of Randy Johnson.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by G1911

I do not see how Valenzuela can possibly be ranked ahead of Randy Johnson.

Greg, Johnson left the Astros after only half a season. He was brought in to take them to the World Series, which he did not do.

Valenzuela was always tough on the Astros. The Dodgers were in the same division, so I saw him pitch a lot. It's the same reason I think Kevin Brown is the greatest right-hander I ever saw. Rob

[G1911]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Greg, Johnson left the Astros after only half a season. He was brought in to take them to the World Series, which he did not do.

Valenzuela was always tough on the Astros. The Dodgers were in the same division, so I saw him pitch a lot. It's the same reason I think Kevin Brown is the greatest right-hander I ever saw. Rob

Now I get it

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by cammb

I wonder how many of you mathematicians have seen Koufax pitch? I have and the players he pitched against say he was the best they had ever seen. The Yankees gave him accolades when they met in the World Series even commenting on his record of 25 and 5 stating "How did he loose 5 games?" I rest my case whether you like it or not

How many of the games you watched Koufax pitch were in Crosley Field or the Coliseum or took place in 1960?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Tabe

How many of the games you watched Koufax pitch were in Crosley Field or the Coliseum or took place in 1960?

Hey, nobody can judge unless they saw Grove pitch too then by his standards. Any takers?

[packs]

You can't use my logic against me because my logic is sound. If you use your logic, you could say Robin Roberts and Sandy Koufax were contemporaries. And you'd be right about seasons overlapping but miss the point entirely when it came to their primes.

[Tabe]

I just wanna chime and say I'm loving the debate. Thanks guys.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

You can't use my logic against me because my logic is sound. If you use your logic, you could say Robin Roberts and Sandy Koufax were contemporaries. And you'd be right about seasons overlapping but miss the point entirely when it came to their primes.

I just gave you a year by year breakdown and source. Vance's PRIME overlaps almost entirely with Grove, except for 1924 alone.

Koufax's prime began 6 years after Roberts' ended (though he was excellent in 1958 as well).

The Gibson/Marichal situation is exactly the same as the Vance/Grove situation. Guy with short career gets his prime going a year or two early (1961 for Koufax, 1961 or 1962 for Gibson, 1963 for Marichal), overlap for the entirety of the shorter career patchers rest of career, and then the longer-lasting pitcher goes for several more years after shorter one burns out.

Holding Sandy, again, to different standards is not logic, it is the absence of it.