1963 Topps checklist question

[Kevvyg1026]

My conclusion after reading all of the posts regarding my original post is that the border and inset colors have to match up and are in multiples of 11.

Therefore, either the print runs for Series 6 and 7 are wrong in the price guides and should be 447 - 511 (with the appropriate 431 checklist) for series 6 and 512 to 576 plus 509 checklist for series 7 or Topps inserted a lot of DPs in both series 6 and 7 to make the colors match (I find the latter hard to believe).

The SPs currently listed in price guides for the 6th series, despite being accepted for over 50 years by the industry, just don't match up with respect to border colors and certainly don't occur in multiples of 11, so I question their validity.

If the number scheme I proposed for the print runs 6 & 7 occurred, the colors match up and no SPs occur. My fervent hope is that some uncut material for either series would be found so we can ascertain what actually transpired.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

My conclusion after reading all of the posts regarding my original post is that the border and inset colors have to match up and are in multiples of 11.

Therefore, either the print runs for Series 6 and 7 are wrong in the price guides and should be 447 - 511 (with the appropriate 431 checklist) for series 6 and 512 to 576 plus 509 checklist for series 7 or Topps inserted a lot of DPs in both series 6 and 7 to make the colors match (I find the latter hard to believe).

The SPs currently listed in price guides for the 6th series, despite being accepted for over 50 years by the industry, just don't match up with respect to border colors and certainly don't occur in multiples of 11, so I question their validity.

If the number scheme I proposed for the print runs 6 & 7 occurred, the colors match up and no SPs occur. My fervent hope is that some uncut material for either series would be found so we can ascertain what actually transpired.

Agree 100%, the 6th and 7th series are each 66 cards, which each having 3 different color 22 card blocks and no short prints. It’s possible for a 22 card color block to be short printed on a 1963 Topps sheet but that wouldn’t make any sense in a series of 66 cards on a 132 card sheet or a 264 card double sheet. I would also add that all 1963 Topps sheets were printed in 22 card color blocks, the 5th series has 77 cards but there were 11 double prints created in order to fill out a 22 card color block making it in essence an 88 card series. Unless some partial sheets or miscut cards showing two different color base cards on the same card show up it will be virtually impossible to show the layouts of the 22 card color blocks on either the 6th or 7th series sheets. I believe the 7th series sheet has the 22 card yellow block at either the top or the bottom of the sheet because it has a recurring print flaw of a horizontal row missing border lines but I can’t prove it, but it wouldn’t make sense for that flaw to affect a horizontal row in the middle of the sheet.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

My conclusion after reading all of the posts regarding my original post is that the border and inset colors have to match up and are in multiples of 11.

Therefore, either the print runs for Series 6 and 7 are wrong in the price guides and should be 447 - 511 (with the appropriate 431 checklist) for series 6 and 512 to 576 plus 509 checklist for series 7 or Topps inserted a lot of DPs in both series 6 and 7 to make the colors match (I find the latter hard to believe).

The SPs currently listed in price guides for the 6th series, despite being accepted for over 50 years by the industry, just don't match up with respect to border colors and certainly don't occur in multiples of 11, so I question their validity.

If the number scheme I proposed for the print runs 6 & 7 occurred, the colors match up and no SPs occur. My fervent hope is that some uncut material for either series would be found so we can ascertain what actually transpired.

Disagree 100%. Dealers at the time sold by the series and the 7th series started with 523. There has been no evidence given to explain this fact.

Please explain how we should expect the SPs to fall if the series were 447-522 and 523-576. We know Topps double printed cards every year 1961-1968 including the 5th series in 1963, so why is it hard to believe they double printed cards in the 6th and 7th series?

[Kevvyg1026]

DPs occur certainly in Series 1 for every year through 1969, whether or not they are listed in price guides. This is because Series 1 had 110 cards printed in the sheet (checklist 1 was printed twice, so cards 1-109), with 42 of those cards printed 3x in the sheet, 66 cards printed twice within the sheet, and the checklist 1 printed 6 x in the sheet. The cards printed 3x in this series are the ones sometimes labeled DPs in the current price guides (e.g., 66 Rose, Hunter, or Mantle).

In 1967, the series 534 - 609 has DPs labeled in current price guides. This has not yet been completely explained, but I suspect that the DPs are because there were 44 cards printed 4x, 22 cards printed 3x, and 11 cards printed twice within the 264 card sheet. The cards printed 4x are the DPs.

Although in earlier years (i.e., 50s), Topps might insert a second copy of a card in a different row, no uncut material that I have seen from 1961-1969 exhibits this procedure. In other words, a row of 11 cards maintains the same 11 cards every time that row shows up in the sheet.

To answer your second question, if the printing for 1963 was done as series 6 (447 - 522) and series 7 (523 - 576), then series 6 would need to have an extra 22 cards printed (6R, 9Y, and 7B) in order to match border colors or, alternatively, there would have to be 11 cards short printed (5 fewer cards with red border, 2 less yellow border, and 4 less blue border). Those 22 cards would be DPs or the 11 cards would be SP.

Similarly, series 7 would require an additional 11 cards printed, with a border color of 4R, 3Y, and 4B to be DPs in order to have the border colors match up.

As I mentioned earlier, there is a conflict between price guide information, vendor cases & other anecdotal information, and the print pattern requirements since the border colors must occur in multiples of 11 for the print series.

Hopefully, someone will come forward with some uncut material that can help resolve the conflict. But I also find it interesting that if the printing really was as 447-511 and 512 - 576, then all borders and insets colors occur in multiples of 11, as they should, and no SPs or DPs exist.

[ALR-bishop]

This has been a great thread

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by rats60

Disagree 100%. Dealers at the time sold by the series and the 7th series started with 523. There has been no evidence given to explain this fact.

Please explain how we should expect the SPs to fall if the series were 447-522 and 523-576. We know Topps double printed cards every year 1961-1968 including the 5th series in 1963, so why is it hard to believe they double printed cards in the 6th and 7th series?

Actually many dealers just listed the series and sold them that way. Some had the number ranges some didn't and they were all over the place when they did show up in ads. I've been reviewing and scanning my run of The Trader Speaks and wish this thread had started a month ago as there are many series-by-series type ads I didn't scan as I'm tracking other things. I did find this in the April 1979 issue of TTS though, looks like some people got it right back then:

[BillP]

I think this really get me closer to where I was, 7th series begins at #512. The checklist starts at #507. Why would a dealer start with #512 unless that's what he opened from wax or vending. I've been in the 512-576 camp for a while. I will say that I can't figure out why #496 dalkowski rookie is always so high. Up until a month ago I was convinced that this was an undocumented SP. Now I think it's the 66 #591 treatment or someone is hoarding again (????).
I will bring up again for those still feeling the SP exist that the color scheme or blues and reds in the becket sp's doesn't line up for me.
Get thread and since I'm a 63 fan/collector really enjoy the insight.

billp

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by BillP

I think this really get me closer to where I was, 7th series begins at #512. The checklist starts at #507. Why would a dealer start with #512 unless that's what he opened from wax or vending. I've been in the 512-576 camp for a while. I will say that I can't figure out why #496 dalkowski rookie is always so high. Up until a month ago I was convinced that this was an undocumented SP. Now I think it's the 66 #591 treatment or someone is hoarding again (????).
I will bring up again for those still feeling the SP exist that the color scheme or blues and reds in the becket sp's doesn't line up for me.
Get thread and since I'm a 63 fan/collector really enjoy the insight.

billp

I think the Dalkowski demand was just due to his semi-mythical status as the ultimate fireballer.

I don't think the full picture on series has been developed yet for 1961-66 (except 63 now) as they all kind of followed the same pattern. It may include 1967 but Topps changed the first series checklist endpoint # that year, so it might be a new pattern started there (1st baseball set developed and produced solely after the move to Duryea in early 1966). Checklists never really matched the actual series until 1967

I'm working on a long term pricing research project (hence all the TTS scans) and much of this stuff was never properly sorted out from the time of issue until, well, now. Most pricing structures for the Topps sets issued in series really came into focus during a 15 month or so period from mid 1977 until the end of 1978 and then once the first Sport-Americana guide came out, it just took off from there. Beckett did two price surveys before the first SA book was published, one in 1977 and another in '78 (both results published in The Trader Speaks) and they basically just tracked set prices. The first had 343 respondents, the second just had 201, although it was an update of the first one.

Lew Lipset was about the first guy to focus on and write about star singles pricing in a major way in his "Lew's Corner" column every month in TTS, although George Lyons sometimes did so as well in "The Lyon's Roar".

[Kevvyg1026]

I would think that for 1967, the print runs were:
#1: 1 - 109 (65 cards 3x, 43 cards 2x, and checklist 1 6x) - 110 cards
#2: 110 - 196, plus checklist 2 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#3: 197 - 283, plus checklist 3 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#4: 284 - 370, plus checklist 4 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#5: 371 - 457, plus checklist 5 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#6: 458 - 533, plus checklist 6 again - 77 cards
#7: 534 - 609, plus checklist 7 again - 77 cards

[toppcat]

I made an Excel sheet then saved it as a JPG-if anyone wants the spreadsheet just PM me. This covers 1961-72 and you can see, if it's correct, which series the SP's might be possible within. 1971 looks weird in Series 3 & 4 as well, don't have time to look at uncut sheets right now, have at it.

[BillP]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

I would think that for 1967, the print runs were:
#1: 1 - 109 (65 cards 3x, 43 cards 2x, and checklist 1 6x) - 110 cards
#2: 110 - 196, plus checklist 2 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#3: 197 - 283, plus checklist 3 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#4: 284 - 370, plus checklist 4 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#5: 371 - 457, plus checklist 5 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#6: 458 - 533, plus checklist 6 again - 77 cards
#7: 534 - 609, plus checklist 7 again - 77 cards

Great work, to continue our sleuthing with 1967 6th series, #476 Perez only SP mentioned in beckett for that series. Like with the 1966 #591, possibility that this card and that one were removed on 1 of the 2 sheets and replaced by a checklist? Only way I can come up with a legitimate 1 card sp. I guess the card would have to be on the end of the row. billp

[jmoran19]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

I would think that for 1967, the print runs were:
#1: 1 - 109 (65 cards 3x, 43 cards 2x, and checklist 1 6x) - 110 cards
#2: 110 - 196, plus checklist 2 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#3: 197 - 283, plus checklist 3 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#4: 284 - 370, plus checklist 4 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#5: 371 - 457, plus checklist 5 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#6: 458 - 533, plus checklist 6 again - 77 cards
#7: 534 - 609, plus checklist 7 again - 77 cards

#1 math is wrong, should equal 264. Excluding series 1 CL 6 rows printed twice, 4 rows printed 3 times

[Kevvyg1026]

Thanks for this scan. It helps put things in perspective and, hopefully, might quiet some who believe the current guides regarding SPs, etc. If the Series 6 printing was 447 to 511, plus the red border variety of checklist 6 (#432), we find 22 cards with a blue border, 22 with a red border, and 22 with a yellow border.

Furthermore, of the 22 with a blue border, 10 have a red inset and 10 have a yellow inset, one is an all-star rookie and one is a team card. For the red border cards, there are 9 with a green inset and 9 with a yellow inset, plus a team card, a manager card, a rookie star car, and the checklist. And finally, for the yellow border cards, 9 have blue insets, 9 have red insets, plus there is a checklist (#509), a manager card, a rookie star card, and a team card. It is not that difficult to arrange the cards without inset circles so that everything occurs in multiples of 11, as it should.

A similar thing happens for Series 7, if it runs from 512 to 576, with checklist 7 included. We see 22 of each border color, and the inset colors also match up in the proper multiples.

Finally, the series 5 colors (both border and insets) also occur in multiples of 11 if the 431 checklist variety is the yellow one on the Series 5 print sheet.

Thank you for your help.