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  #1  
Old 06-06-2020, 06:04 AM
Kevvyg1026 Kevvyg1026 is offline
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Default 1963 Topps checklist question

I know that Topps printed cards in 132 card half-sheets and understand why many of the card numbers shown on checklists do not necessarily agree with the actual print sheets, but I am curious if any one else has noticed the following conundrum.

Many price guide show the 1963 Topps card values for Series 5 (371-446), Series 6 (447 - 522), and Series 7 (523 - 576) where Series is meant to match up against the actual printing and not the checklist. The 1963 Topps set was printed in a manner that matched up the bottom border colors (i.e., cards in the same row shared the same color bottom border, with cards in alternate rows printed upside down in order to have the same border shared between two rows). Furthermore, Topps used printing schemes that had eleven cards in a row, so this means that a print run should have border colors show up in multiples of 11.

For Series 5, assuming that checklist 362 had a red border and checklist 431 was the yellow border, we get a distribution of 33R, 22Y, and 22B which nicely aligns with the expected print sequences stated in price guides.

However, if Series 6 was printed as shown in the guides (i.e., 447 - 522 plus #431 with a Red border), we get a distribution like 27R, 24Y, and 26B, while Series 7 (523-576 plus 509) yields 18R, 19Y, and 18B. In other words, the row multiples don't match up like they should.

On the other hand, if we let the Series 6 include cards 431 (red variety) plus 447 - 511 (not up to 522), and Series 7 have cards 509, plus 512-576, then the distribution appears like:

Series 6: 22R, 22Y, 22B
Series 7: 22R, 22Y, 22B

I haven't seen any uncut material from either Series 6 or 7 from 1963, but I believe that the proposal I described is what Topps actually did. Then, since each series would have 66 cards, no short prints should exist as all cards would be printed in equal quantities for bot of the last two series.
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  #2  
Old 06-06-2020, 07:52 AM
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Except we know that there are short prints in the 6th series that are much tougher. I know that when I bought a complete 7th series in 1974 from Wholesale Card Co. it contained 523-576 and the cards were definitely from vending. It would make no sense to hold back cards when neither matched the checklist. With 24 rows printed on the sheet, there would be one row printed 4 times and 4 rows printed 5 times so the uneven numbers would be able to be matched up. It may be why there were 11 cards that were printed in much smaller quantities than the others in the 6th series.
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  #3  
Old 06-06-2020, 09:10 AM
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On the 1963 Topps high number original uncut sheet there is at least one block of 22 yellow based cards which would be two horizontal rows of 11 cards. Because of a recurring print error that affects 8 of the 11 cards in one row I know without a doubt that the top row consists of Ed Sadowski, Gus Bell, Cardinals Team, Ray Herbert, Sam Mele, Lou Klimchock, Mike McCormick, Cliff Cook, Russ Snyder, Billy Klaus, and Don Cardwell. Other than the Cardinals team card and manager Sam Mele the other nine cards have blue inset circles, that is how Topps did the horizontal rows that year. The next horizontal row consists of 11 yellow based cards with red inset circles. The problem is there are only 7 cards in the high number series that have a yellow base and a red inset circle, Nellie Fox, Johnny Klippstein, Luis Arroyo, Jose Pagan, Jack Spring, Carl Willey, Johnny Temple, and the Dave McNally rookie card is also on that row. That leaves 3 cards in that row unaccounted for. Either three cards were double printed or three cards from the previous series were used. The question is, who are those three cards? The Sadowski is an example of a yellow based card with a blue inset circle, the Spring is an example of a yellow based card with a red inset circle, and the miscut McNally card shows that it was under the Sadowski on the sheet. ETA: It is very probable that a yellow based checklist is on that row missing three cards but that would still leave two unaccounted for cards.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 63 sadowski error.jpg (13.6 KB, 269 views)
File Type: jpg s-l1600spring.jpg (87.0 KB, 262 views)
File Type: jpg 22-1970-dayton-news-bubble-gumless_1_6f55f454fba5c457c2d75306e5bbe1d2dmcnally.jpg (77.1 KB, 257 views)
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Last edited by Cliff Bowman; 06-06-2020 at 09:36 AM. Reason: Added scans
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  #4  
Old 06-06-2020, 12:43 PM
BillP BillP is offline
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Great post. About a week ago I started a thread on the 6th series SP count. I know theres about 5-6 listed sp's in that series. and I call that series 447-522. so 76 cards. makes sense that the run was 88 cards with the color scheme so 8 x 11. a duplicate checklist and others. Come to think of it though the sp's listed don't all have the same color base. Killebrew -red, tresh - blue, freehan RC - red, long - red, brinkman -red. From there I need help. Any input welcome. One of my favorite sets and I'm stuck on finding out the true 6th series sp's. billp
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  #5  
Old 06-06-2020, 01:11 PM
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Ok, did some sleuthing around the internet for marked 6th or 7th series checklists. Found at least 2 instances where the 7th series was marked only to card 511. In order words cards 507-511 were filled in/check off. All other cards after that were unchecked. The other 7th had boxes checked from 512-576 but nothing in 507-511. (not all 512-576 were checked though).
If including 512-522 in the 7th series, does that account for a 66 7th series sheet including another 7th series checklist? From a yellow base point of view?
That would leave the 6th series as 447-511 or 65 cards with a duplicate checklist. The only problem there is the supposed sp's. in the 6th series.

billp
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  #6  
Old 06-06-2020, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillP View Post
Great post. About a week ago I started a thread on the 6th series SP count. I know theres about 5-6 listed sp's in that series. and I call that series 447-522. so 76 cards. makes sense that the run was 88 cards with the color scheme so 8 x 11. a duplicate checklist and others. Come to think of it though the sp's listed don't all have the same color base. Killebrew -red, tresh - blue, freehan RC - red, long - red, brinkman -red. From there I need help. Any input welcome. One of my favorite sets and I'm stuck on finding out the true 6th series sp's. billp
The Mets team card is a SP.
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  #7  
Old 06-06-2020, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillP View Post
Ok, did some sleuthing around the internet for marked 6th or 7th series checklists. Found at least 2 instances where the 7th series was marked only to card 511. In order words cards 507-511 were filled in/check off. All other cards after that were unchecked. The other 7th had boxes checked from 512-576 but nothing in 507-511. (not all 512-576 were checked though).
If including 512-522 in the 7th series, does that account for a 66 7th series sheet including another 7th series checklist? From a yellow base point of view?
That would leave the 6th series as 447-511 or 65 cards with a duplicate checklist. The only problem there is the supposed sp's. in the 6th series.

billp
I think you may be on to something. If it is taken back to #512 rather than #523 then that would include #515 Don Elston and #518 Don Blasingame, that would work out perfectly for the second horizontal row of yellow based cards with the red inset circles. 9 cards with red inset circles, the McNally rookie card, and a checklist card. I will experiment with all of the red based 63 high numbers and the blue based 63 high numbers and see what I come up with.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 63 elston.jpg (18.6 KB, 239 views)
File Type: jpg 63 blasingame.jpg (26.2 KB, 237 views)
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Last edited by Cliff Bowman; 06-06-2020 at 06:33 PM. Reason: Minor correction
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  #8  
Old 06-06-2020, 05:33 PM
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If the 1963 Topps high number red base cards are taken back to #512 it also works out perfectly. There are 9 red base cards with yellow inset circles, Wes Covington, Steve Boros, Jim Perry, Jim Duffalo, Coot Veal, Claude Raymond, Dan Pfister, Ken Walters, George Banks. Then there are four non single player cards that are not part of the pattern but two of each would be on each of the two rows, manager Danny Murtaugh, Tigers team card, and two multi player rookie cards, one with Gary Peters and the other with Marcelino Lopez. There are nine red base single player cards that have the green circle, Duke Snider, Bill Kunkel, Orlando Cepeda, Purnal Goldy, Al Worthington, Larry Sherry, Hal Kolstad, Tom Satriano, Norm Larker. The Veal is a red base with a yellow inset circle, the Kolstad is a red base with a green inset circle, the rookie card is one of the four red base cards that doesn't fit the pattern.
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File Type: jpg 63 veal.jpg (19.0 KB, 236 views)
File Type: jpg 63 kolstad.jpg (24.6 KB, 230 views)
File Type: jpg 63 lopez.jpg (25.9 KB, 240 views)
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Last edited by Cliff Bowman; 06-06-2020 at 10:29 PM. Reason: Correction, found missing card
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  #9  
Old 06-06-2020, 06:25 PM
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The 1963 Topps high number blue based cards work out perfectly if it goes back to #512, it cannot include #511. If started at #512, there are nine blue base single player cards with the red inset circle, Frank Bolling, Bob Sadowski, Mike de la Hoz, Hal Reniff, Roberto Clemente, Bobby Shantz, Larry Osborne, Dick Hall, Cal McLish, nine blue base single player cards with orange inset circles, Gary Geiger, Hal Woodeshick, Don Mossi, George Brunet, Wayne Causey, Ron Moeller, Hank Fischer, John Blanchard, Cuno Barragan, and four multi player rookie cards, Pete Rose, Willie Stargell, Rusty Staub, Ron Hunt. Two each of the multi player cards would be on each horizontal row. The Bolling is a blue base card with a red inset circle, the Mossi is a blue base card with an orange inset circle, and the Hunt rookie card doesn't fit either pattern.
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File Type: jpg 63 bolling.jpg (21.7 KB, 240 views)
File Type: jpg 63 mossi.jpg (18.9 KB, 236 views)
File Type: jpg 63 hunt.jpg (27.6 KB, 234 views)
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Last edited by Cliff Bowman; 06-22-2020 at 08:24 PM. Reason: Spelling
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  #10  
Old 06-06-2020, 06:31 PM
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All of this tells me one thing, either the 1963 Topps last series checklist has been wrong for decades and actually starts at #512 rather than #523, or cards #512 through #522 were included in both of the last two series and should be considered double prints.
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Old 06-06-2020, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillP View Post
Ok, did some sleuthing around the internet for marked 6th or 7th series checklists. Found at least 2 instances where the 7th series was marked only to card 511. In order words cards 507-511 were filled in/check off. All other cards after that were unchecked. The other 7th had boxes checked from 512-576 but nothing in 507-511. (not all 512-576 were checked though).
If including 512-522 in the 7th series, does that account for a 66 7th series sheet including another 7th series checklist? From a yellow base point of view?
That would leave the 6th series as 447-511 or 65 cards with a duplicate checklist. The only problem there is the supposed sp's. in the 6th series.

billp
OK, I see exactly what you are saying now, 447-511 plus an extra checklist would comprise the entire 6th series, and 512-576 plus an extra checklist would comprise the entire 7th series, which I have just proven. It looks like I have to start it all anew on the 6th series 447-511.
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Last edited by Cliff Bowman; 06-06-2020 at 06:55 PM. Reason: Correction
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  #12  
Old 06-06-2020, 06:54 PM
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I think it's been wrong for decades. to include a numerical sequence in the next series seems far fetched. how about the 6th series as a challenge? 447-511 how do they color base wise match up? and sp's..... there has to be more than beckett lists. card #496 is way up there in price every time. id say 502 as well.
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Old 06-06-2020, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillP View Post
I think it's been wrong for decades. to include a numerical sequence in the next series seems far fetched. how about the 6th series as a challenge? 447-511 how do they color base wise match up? and sp's..... there has to be more than beckett lists. card #496 is way up there in price every time. id say 502 as well.
I'm working on it now. I believe this will establish that there are no SP's in either series and that it's like you said, 447-511 and 512-576 are each series.
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Old 06-06-2020, 07:50 PM
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For the 6th series 447-511 there are ten blue base with orange inset circle cards, Charlie Neal, Ken McBride, Ted Savage, Jerry Adair, Jim Landis, Jim Owens, Bob Taylor, Carroll Hardy, Ruben Amaro, Jake Wood, ten blue base with red inset circle cards, Lou Brock, Dave Wickersham, Frank Thomas, Daryl Spencer, Willie McCovey, Bill Monbouquette, Donn Clendenon, Chuck Estrada, Wally Post, Tex Clevenger, one blue base with a rookie trophy, Tom Tresh, and a blue base team card of the Indians. That works out to 22 cards which is perfect. The 63 Monbouquette is a blue base with a red inset circle, the 63 Wood is a blue base with an orange inset circle, the 63 Tresh is a blue base with a trophy rather than an inset circle.
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File Type: jpg 63 monbouquette.jpg (18.2 KB, 237 views)
File Type: jpg 63 wood.jpg (21.7 KB, 235 views)
File Type: jpg 63 trsh.jpg (24.6 KB, 233 views)
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Old 06-06-2020, 08:11 PM
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For the 1963 Topps 6th series 447-511 there are 9 red base with yellow inset circle cards, Phil Ortega, Gus Triandos, Harmon Killebrew, Walt Bond, Ed Brinkman, Paul Brown, Ken Aspromonte, Del Crandall, Jose Tartabull, 9 red base with green inset circle cards, Ken Retzer, Frank Funk, Dale Long, Joe Azcue, Jay Hook, Dick LeMay, Barney Schultz, Gene Green, John Roseboro, one red base team card of the Mets, one red base manager card of Al Lopez, and one red base multi payer rookie card with Steve Dalkowski. This is one card short so I will have to figure out what it is and come back to it. The Brinkman is a red base with a yellow inset circle, the Roseboro is a red base with a green inset circle, and the Mets team is a red base card. ETA: Thanks to Mike Lenart, the missing card is the red base variation of #431 6th series checklist, so that completes the 66 total cards and 22 each of blue, red, and yellow based cards.
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File Type: jpg 63 brinkman.jpg (16.7 KB, 237 views)
File Type: jpg 63 roseboro.jpg (19.5 KB, 223 views)
File Type: jpg 63 mets.jpg (35.7 KB, 228 views)
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Last edited by Cliff Bowman; 06-14-2020 at 07:05 PM. Reason: Addition
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Old 06-06-2020, 08:31 PM
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Could the missing Red card be #431, the 6th series checklist?

Mike
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Old 06-06-2020, 08:41 PM
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For the 1963 Topps 6th series 447-511 there are 9 yellow base with red inset circle cards, Joe Shaffernoth, Jack Fisher, Felix Torres, Roland Sheldon, Bob Johnson, Bennie Daniels, Phil Regan, Ray Sadecki, Norm Bass, 9 yellow base with blue inset circle cards, Jim Coker, Curt Flood, Felix Mantilla, JC Martin, Eddie Kasko, Art Fowler, Jack Kralick, Bob Friend, Paul Toth, one yellow base multi player rookie card with Bill Freehan, one yellow base manager card of Harry Craft, one yellow base team card of the Braves, and a yellow base 7th series checklist for a perfect total of 22 cards, which makes two horizontal rows of 11 cards. The Torres is a yellow base with a red inset circle, the Flood is a yellow base with a blue inset circle, the yellow base Freehan rookie card doesn't fit either pattern.
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File Type: jpg 63 torres.jpg (18.0 KB, 229 views)
File Type: jpg 63 flood.jpg (18.2 KB, 219 views)
File Type: jpg 63 freehan.jpg (27.5 KB, 219 views)
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Last edited by Cliff Bowman; 06-21-2020 at 11:45 AM. Reason: Correction, had Toth with wrong color inset circle
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Old 06-06-2020, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
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Could the missing Red card be #431, the 6th series checklist?

Mike
Thank you, that was going to be the first thing I was going to look for, a red checklist.
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Old 06-07-2020, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026 View Post
I know that Topps printed cards in 132 card half-sheets and understand why many of the card numbers shown on checklists do not necessarily agree with the actual print sheets, but I am curious if any one else has noticed the following conundrum.

Many price guide show the 1963 Topps card values for Series 5 (371-446), Series 6 (447 - 522), and Series 7 (523 - 576) where Series is meant to match up against the actual printing and not the checklist. The 1963 Topps set was printed in a manner that matched up the bottom border colors (i.e., cards in the same row shared the same color bottom border, with cards in alternate rows printed upside down in order to have the same border shared between two rows). Furthermore, Topps used printing schemes that had eleven cards in a row, so this means that a print run should have border colors show up in multiples of 11.

For Series 5, assuming that checklist 362 had a red border and checklist 431 was the yellow border, we get a distribution of 33R, 22Y, and 22B which nicely aligns with the expected print sequences stated in price guides.

However, if Series 6 was printed as shown in the guides (i.e., 447 - 522 plus #431 with a Red border), we get a distribution like 27R, 24Y, and 26B, while Series 7 (523-576 plus 509) yields 18R, 19Y, and 18B. In other words, the row multiples don't match up like they should.

On the other hand, if we let the Series 6 include cards 431 (red variety) plus 447 - 511 (not up to 522), and Series 7 have cards 509, plus 512-576, then the distribution appears like:

Series 6: 22R, 22Y, 22B
Series 7: 22R, 22Y, 22B

I haven't seen any uncut material from either Series 6 or 7 from 1963, but I believe that the proposal I described is what Topps actually did. Then, since each series would have 66 cards, no short prints should exist as all cards would be printed in equal quantities for bot of the last two series.
I have just now reread your entire post carefully and after all the searching and putting together I did last night I see that you had already done much of that and even nailed the part of the missing 66th card in each series, the #431 red checklist in the 6th series and the #509 yellow checklist in the 7th series. Great job. All of this should now prove that the 6th series is 447-511 at 66 cards, 22y, 22r, 22b, and the 6th series is 512-576 at 66 cards, 22y, 22r, 22b, and there are no SP's in either series. I have a feeling that is going to be difficult because it has been accepted for decades that the 7th series starts at 523 and that there are SP's in the 6th series.
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Last edited by Cliff Bowman; 06-07-2020 at 09:03 AM. Reason: Grammar
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Old 06-07-2020, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman View Post
I have just now reread your entire post carefully and after all the searching and putting together I did last night I see that you had already done much of that and even nailed the part of the missing 66th card in each series, the #431 red checklist in the 6th series and the #509 yellow checklist in the 7th series. Great job. All of this should now prove that the 6th series is 447-511 at 66 cards, 22y, 22r, 22b, and the 6th series is 512-576 at 66 cards, 22y, 22r, 22b, and there are no SP's in either series. I have a feeling that is going to be difficult because it has been accepted for decades that the 7th series starts at 523 and that there are SP's in the 6th series.
Great stuff. The 63 is aided by the colored base. If only 66 were as easy.
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Old 06-07-2020, 11:46 AM
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Maybe we can get George Vrecheck interested in working up an SCD article on it. His analysis is well respected and he seems to like this kind of research. He has done a prior article about DP variants in the 63 set. I can send him a link to the thread. Unless you guys want to pursue something yourselves

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Old 06-07-2020, 12:05 PM
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I think that's a great idea. Maybe it will spur on a uncut sheet that no one has seen. I have seen the th series uncut sheet only for 63.
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Old 06-07-2020, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
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Maybe we can get George Vrecheck interested in working up an SCD article on it. His analysis is well respected and he seems to like this kind of research. He has done a prior article about DP variants in the 63 set. I can send him a link to the thread. Unless you guys want to pursue something yourselves
If he sees this thread and gives it his blessing that would do more than anything else possible for it to be accepted that the 6th series is 66 cards 447-511 + the checklist, the 7th series is 66 cards 512-576 + the checklist, and that there are no SP's in either series. The OP should get all of the credit because he started the conversation and he initially stated nearly all of the evidence, I just didn’t realize all of it until much later.
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Last edited by Cliff Bowman; 06-07-2020 at 01:45 PM. Reason: Missed a word
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Old 06-07-2020, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman View Post
I have just now reread your entire post carefully and after all the searching and putting together I did last night I see that you had already done much of that and even nailed the part of the missing 66th card in each series, the #431 red checklist in the 6th series and the #509 yellow checklist in the 7th series. Great job. All of this should now prove that the 6th series is 447-511 at 66 cards, 22y, 22r, 22b, and the 6th series is 512-576 at 66 cards, 22y, 22r, 22b, and there are no SP's in either series. I have a feeling that is going to be difficult because it has been accepted for decades that the 7th series starts at 523 and that there are SP's in the 6th series.
It still doesn't answer why those selling mail order in the 60s and early 70s were selling the 7th series as 523-576. I would assume that they purchased vending direct from Topps as the cards that I received were clearly from vending. Is Bruce Yeko or Richard Gellman around to ask? Would someone at Fritch Cards give up that information? I know they know what the true short prints are in the 60s Topps sets but were always very tight lipped about it. And they were charging extremely high prices for certain 6th series cards in the 70s that we now list as SPs. This is certainly interesting research, but it doesn't fit early hobby history without further confirmation.
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Old 06-07-2020, 04:39 PM
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I just want to thank everyone for their input. I have always wanted to collect this set. I really like the colors--it is a classic from the 60's for sure.Great work as usual guys. Thanks again.
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Old 06-07-2020, 05:05 PM
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Interesting thread for sure. Here's a 4th series sheet, which is the latest sheet I can find an image of, although it can't really be blown up well. Really just to show how the sheets were composed-super colorful this way.
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File Type: jpg 63 topps baseball fourth series sheet front.jpg (85.0 KB, 196 views)

Last edited by toppcat; 06-08-2020 at 07:56 AM.
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Old 06-07-2020, 05:44 PM
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It still doesn't answer why those selling mail order in the 60s and early 70s were selling the 7th series as 523-576. I would assume that they purchased vending direct from Topps as the cards that I received were clearly from vending. Is Bruce Yeko or Richard Gellman around to ask? Would someone at Fritch Cards give up that information? I know they know what the true short prints are in the 60s Topps sets but were always very tight lipped about it. And they were charging extremely high prices for certain 6th series cards in the 70s that we now list as SPs. This is certainly interesting research, but it doesn't fit early hobby history without further confirmation.
I agree 100% that it is going to be difficult to change something that has been accepted for 50 years or so. I am puzzled about the idea of short prints, if the 6th series red based Harmon Killebrew and Mets team card are short prints wouldn't that mean that the other 20 cards they are connected to in their 22 card color block also are short prints?
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Old 06-07-2020, 06:28 PM
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I agree 100% that it is going to be difficult to change something that has been accepted for 50 years or so. I am puzzled about the idea of short prints, if the 6th series red based Harmon Killebrew or blue based Mets team card are short prints wouldn't that mean that the other 21 cards they are connected to in their respective 22 card color blocks also are short prints?
If there are 77 cards in the series, there wouldn't be 22 card color blocks. There would be cards that would appear on the sheet more times than others. Without a sheet we don't know. Dealers sold the cards as series, so why would they not sell them as they received them?

Why haven't collectors ever contradicted this in 57 years? It was common for certain areas to not get a late series. In our area (Orange County, CA) we didn't get the 7th series in 1967, but were flooded with 6th series. St. Louis didn't get 6th series cards, but did get 7th. You would think there would be childhood collections missing one series or the other that could confirm something about the 11 numbers in question.
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Old 06-08-2020, 06:09 AM
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When Baseball expanded in 1961, Topps made their sets larger. The numbers were pretty consistent from 1961-1968 until MLB expanded in 1969. Every year from 1961-1968 the high series started at 523, except 1967 when they added 11 (22) cards to their set making 609 instead of 598 (587). They printed 11 extra cards in the 6th series and the high series started at 534. The 1961 set is identical to 1963 in numbers and we know that the high series starts at 523 because the high numbers are so scarce. Why would they print the cards differently in 1963?

It is not enough to say the colors match up because Topps could have just printed different numbers of each player. You are going to have 88 of each color card on the sheet. It is neat to say there must have been 22 of each color and they were printed 4 times, but we know that Topps wasn't always neat. In 1967 we believe that one row (with Seaver RC) was only printed 2 times while other rows were printed 3 or 4 times. So, it isn't enough to say the colors have to match up because they don't. There needs to be some definite proof that Topps decided to print the last 2 series completely different from every other year in the 1961-1968 time frame. You need either proof in the form of an uncut sheet, vending box or unopened pack(s). Or you need dealers, collectors and/or employees of Topps who were active in 1963 to contradict what is accepted.
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Old 06-08-2020, 07:20 AM
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Hopefully this thread will generate more input, analysis and debate, just as you suggest packs
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Old 06-08-2020, 07:22 AM
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Default 1963 colors

I agree that uncut sheets, miscuts, etc, are necessary to unequivocally know what was actually printed. However, in 1963, (like 1975), Topps used a printing method whereby two rows of cards were printed with the border colors together (i.e., one row right side up, the other upside down). Since Topps printed 11 cards in each row, these border counts should be multiples of 11.

Furthermore, if one believe that Topps printed 55 cards in the last series of 1963 (523 - 576 plus checklist), then that would be the only time during the period 1961 to 1973 that Topps printed 55 cards in a print run.

As far as 1967 goes, the 77 unique cards printed in the last series (534 - 609, plus checklist) over the spread of a 264 card print sheet was probably done using a pattern of four rows 4x each, two rows 3x each, and one row 2x each. This results in either 11 SPs, or 44 DPs.
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Old 06-08-2020, 08:07 AM
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CARDS 509 (CHECKLIST), 515, and 518 also have yellow border with red insert circle. Card 524 (Cards team) may also.
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Old 06-08-2020, 08:23 AM
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CARDS 509 (CHECKLIST), 515, and 518 also have yellow border with red insert circle. Card 524 (Cards team) may also.
The Cardinals team card is on the row with yellow based with blue inset circle cards, it is between Gus Bell and Ray Herbert. Team cards, manager cards, checklists, multi player rookie cards, and multi player special cards are not part of the pattern and can appear on any row. Single player cards that are on any horizontal row will all have the same color inset circle.
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Old 06-08-2020, 09:18 AM
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Based on that series 4 image, you can see that a manager card can be put in any inset color row, as can rookie and team cards. So with some very minor adjustments, you can get rows of 11 cards each for (border/inset) B/R, B/O, R/G, R/O, Y/R, and Y/B if the last series had 66 cards stretching from 512 - 576 and including checklist 509. Doing this allows four rows of each card to be printed, hence no SPs should exist for any card in the last two series, although the scarcity, determined by print quantity is still a price factor.

I believe the same is true for the 6th series, going from 447 - 511, and including the proper color variation for checklist 431.

I understand this can't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt without seeing some uncut material, but I believe this is what Topps did in 1963 (i.e., the last two series were 66 cards each, with no SPs. If it isn't, and the price guides are correct, then there would have to be SPs in both series, and the SPs would have to occur in multiples of 11 (except for the checklists). Having four or five SPs with different border colors and/or inset colors just doesn't make sense.
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Old 06-08-2020, 09:37 AM
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OK, I'm trying to puzzle out the fifth series with these new observations factored in. Based on the uncut sheet I show above, the 4th series runs from #284-370 according to the REA description (I have not checked further). However, to get to #446 where the 6th Series starts, it works out to a 77 card run for the 5th, if my math is correct, which seems an odd configuration given the findings in this thread.

Series 1: 1-109 (110 cards incl. extra checklist)
Series 2: 110-196 (88 cards, ditto)
Series 3: 197-283 (88 cards, ditto)
Series 4: 284-370 (88 cards ditto)
Series 5: 371-446 (77 cards, ditto)
Series 6: 447-511 (66 cards, ditto)
Series 7: 512-576 (66 cards, as above)
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Old 06-08-2020, 10:32 AM
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Furthermore, if one believe that Topps printed 55 cards in the last series of 1963 (523 - 576 plus checklist), then that would be the only time during the period 1961 to 1973 that Topps printed 55 cards in a print run.
This is not true. Topps printed 55 cards in the 7th series in 1961. They also printed 77 cards in the 6th series. We know that as a fact because the 7th series cards are much rarer than the 6th series. So, when it would have made sense to print 66 and 66 instead of 77 and 55, so the cards would be in equal quantities, Topps deliberately chose to print in unequal numbers. We also believe that Topps short printed one row of 11 cards in the 5th series.

So, we know that Topps was playing games with the 1961 set. Why would they have done things in a way that didn't create SPs in 1963? They also only printed 55 cards in the 7th series in 1964 while printing 77 in the 6th series. There are clearly SPs in those series too, but 1964 and 1965 high numbers are plentiful so it has never been an issue.

Last edited by rats60; 06-08-2020 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 06-08-2020, 10:40 AM
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OK, I'm trying to puzzle out the fifth series with these new observations factored in. Based on the uncut sheet I show above, the 4th series runs from #284-370 according to the REA description (I have not checked further). However, to get to #446 where the 6th Series starts, it works out to a 77 card run for the 5th, if my math is correct, which seems an odd configuration given the findings in this thread.

Series 1: 1-109 (110 cards incl. extra checklist)
Series 2: 110-196 (88 cards, ditto)
Series 3: 197-283 (88 cards, ditto)
Series 4: 284-370 (88 cards ditto)
Series 5: 371-446 (77 cards, ditto)
Series 6: 447-511 (66 cards, ditto)
Series 7: 512-576 (66 cards, as above)
The series with 77 cards is the series that has the 11 double prints that have cropping differences and statistical differences, Norm Cash, Don Zimmer, etc. Those 11 double prints bring it up to a normal 88 cards.
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Old 06-08-2020, 10:46 AM
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I understand this can't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt without seeing some uncut material, but I believe this is what Topps did in 1963 (i.e., the last two series were 66 cards each, with no SPs. If it isn't, and the price guides are correct, then there would have to be SPs in both series, and the SPs would have to occur in multiples of 11 (except for the checklists). Having four or five SPs with different border colors and/or inset colors just doesn't make sense.
It makes perfect sense. There are uneven numbers of color cards (not in elevens) and there would be 88 cards of each color on the sheet. That would mean that there would be DPs in every block of 22 for the 7th series and cards missing from every block of 22 cards in the 6th series. That would create a situation where there are unequal numbers of cards in every color, meaning that the SPs would have to be from different colors.

The SPs do occur in multiples of 11. We are just not sure of which cards they all are. We know Killebrew is tougher than other stars (Brock, McCovey). We know the Yankess and Mets that are tougher. We know the Freehan RC is tough. Other cards that are short printed just don't have the demand to differentiate them as SPs and remember we are not talking about 2 to 1, but 4 to 3. It is most likely that there are 33 SP cards but we are only seeing for sure the highest demand cards from that group as short printed.
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Old 06-08-2020, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by toppcat View Post
OK, I'm trying to puzzle out the fifth series with these new observations factored in. Based on the uncut sheet I show above, the 4th series runs from #284-370 according to the REA description (I have not checked further). However, to get to #446 where the 6th Series starts, it works out to a 77 card run for the 5th, if my math is correct, which seems an odd configuration given the findings in this thread.

Series 1: 1-109 (110 cards incl. extra checklist)
Series 2: 110-196 (88 cards, ditto)
Series 3: 197-283 (88 cards, ditto)
Series 4: 284-370 (88 cards ditto)
Series 5: 371-446 (77 cards, ditto)
Series 6: 447-511 (66 cards, ditto)
Series 7: 512-576 (66 cards, as above)
To follow up, the 11 double prints are Norm Cash, Don Zimmer, Al McBean, Jerry Walker, Wes Stock, Bob Oldis, Roy Face, Don Lee, Jim Davenport, Johnnie Wyatt, and a four player rookie card with Ed Kirkpatrick.
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Old 06-08-2020, 11:44 AM
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To follow up, the 11 double prints are Norm Cash, Don Zimmer, Al McBean, Jerry Walker, Wes Stock, Bob Oldis, Roy Face, Don Lee, Jim Davenport, Johnnie Wyatt, and a four player rookie card with Ed Kirkpatrick.
Ah, I missed that-thanks. Kinda weird though, right? Makes you wonder if there was a production issue of some kind.

On a related note, I think certain sheet positions in certain years can affect SP status. Some cards probably were probably cut or damaged so badly at the very end of the process they got chucked. Edges and corners can be problematic but other positions too it seems.

Last edited by toppcat; 06-08-2020 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 06-08-2020, 12:08 PM
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Ah, I missed that-thanks. Kinda weird though, right? Makes you wonder if there was a production issue of some kind.
I think it was done strictly out of the necessity to have a full 22 card color block to fill out a complete sheet and they probably didn’t have the time to create the new cards and this was the easiest and quickest solution at the time.
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Old 06-08-2020, 01:45 PM
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Default Yep

Fun stuff, especially 57 years later. I noted -
Sugar's Bible from 1977 has the last series starting at #525,
Beckett #3 from 1981 starts it at #507 (as per the Topps checklist #509)
Beckett #14 from 1992 starts it at #523
SCD Catalog from 1999 starts it at #523
SCD Catalog from 2016 dodges it all by going from 447-576 for the high series
PSA today starts it at #523
No one much bothers with the reprinted checklist #509 issue.
Len Brown of Topps mentioned to me the need to match up the bases in this set like they did with the 1953s to avoid base colors bleeding over to where they shouldn't be.
Just looking at the last printing, it sure makes sense to me that they likely printed #509 along with #512 - #576 to have 66 cards with nicely matched bases - 22 of each color. I don't think the circle insets were as critical since I see some from an uncut sheet in the first series that don't all match.

Interesting also that the extra 11 cards mentioned in Series 5 are all found with cropping variations.
Yes, the bases should match up - except when they don't as in the case of #21, #28, #40 and #105 which seem to have some wrong adjacent base colors on miscuts.
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Old 06-08-2020, 03:40 PM
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I don't think the circle insets were as critical since I see some from an uncut sheet in the first series that don't all match.
Here is a scan of the first series sheet. Can you please tell me which player card has an inset circle color that doesn't match up to the other player cards in the same horizontal row? It doesn't apply to manager cards, team cards, multi player rookie cards, multi player special cards, or checklists. Just mention the horizontal row number and which card it is on that row. ETA: There is least one card on this sheet that has a rookie trophy in place of the inset circle, Ed Charles.
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File Type: jpg 63 tops shhet 1.jpg (48.7 KB, 163 views)
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Old 06-08-2020, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by vrechek View Post
Yes, the bases should match up - except when they don't as in the case of #21, #28, #40 and #105 which seem to have some wrong adjacent base colors on miscuts.
You are referring to cards that are on the outer edge of the sheet and if they are off-center a certain way will show an anomaly of the printing sheet, it has nothing to do with the card that is above, below, or beside it. There are no cards to that side of them. ETA: there are people that try to sell these as variations on eBay, which I don't agree with. I have seen them with different colors, blue, yellow, and white.
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File Type: jpg 63 fornieles.jpg (78.0 KB, 163 views)
File Type: jpg 63 topps fairly.jpg (77.5 KB, 164 views)
File Type: jpg 63 topps keough.jpg (31.5 KB, 161 views)
File Type: jpg 63 topps power.jpg (77.2 KB, 164 views)
File Type: jpg 63 tops shhet 1.jpg (52.4 KB, 162 views)
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Last edited by Cliff Bowman; 06-08-2020 at 07:40 PM. Reason: Clarification
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Old 06-08-2020, 05:09 PM
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I will show all five 22 card color blocks from the first series sheet. I will have to show each one in a separate post to maximize the size. This first one shows red based cards with yellow inset circles. Can anyone spot a player card with the wrong color inset circle? ETA: the last card on the first row is a team card and does not follow the player card pattern.
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File Type: jpg 63 tops shhet 1.jpg (39.2 KB, 158 views)
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Old 06-08-2020, 05:21 PM
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This is the second 22 card color block. They are blue based with red inset circles. The second card is Ed Charles with a rookie trophy. Does anyone see a player card that does not have a red inset circle other than the Charles?
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File Type: jpg 63 topps sheet 12.jpg (73.3 KB, 154 views)
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Last edited by Cliff Bowman; 06-08-2020 at 06:08 PM. Reason: Found better scan
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Old 06-08-2020, 05:27 PM
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This is the third 22 card color block on the first series sheet. They are all yellow based with red inset circles. Does anyone see a player card that does not have a red inset circle?
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File Type: jpg 63 topps sheet 11.jpg (76.0 KB, 156 views)
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Last edited by Cliff Bowman; 06-08-2020 at 06:02 PM. Reason: Found better scan
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Old 06-08-2020, 05:32 PM
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This is the fourth 22 card color block from the first series sheet. All 22 cards are green based, the top row has all player cards with yellow inset circles, the bottom row has all player cards with red inset circles. Does anyone see a player card with the wrong color inset circle?
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File Type: jpg 63 topps sheet 10.jpg (39.6 KB, 153 views)
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Last edited by Cliff Bowman; 06-08-2020 at 05:59 PM. Reason: Found better scan
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Old 06-08-2020, 05:41 PM
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This is the fifth 22 card color block from the first series sheet. All 22 cards are red based and all single player cards have green inset circles. Does anyone see a player card with the wrong inset circle? This block has several cards that are not player cards. On the first row, the first card is a manager, the second card is a checklist, the third card is a team card, the sixth card is a multi player rookie card, the seventh card is a multi player special card. On the second row, the third card is a multi player leaders card, the fourth card is a manager card, and the eleventh card is a checklist card.
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File Type: jpg 63 topps sheet.jpg (69.6 KB, 160 views)
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Last edited by Cliff Bowman; 06-08-2020 at 05:52 PM. Reason: Found better scan
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Old 06-08-2020, 05:41 PM
Kevvyg1026 Kevvyg1026 is offline
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This is also true for series 4, with the clarification that team cards, combo cards, and rookie cards match the border only.
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