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#1
05-30-2020, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
I much appreciate your post. To me, the Bond Bread insert set is a regional issue. I grew up in the Oakland area of California. In the late 1940s and into the 1950s, the three Big Leagues for me were the Pacific Coast League, the National League and the American League. We had no MBL until 1958, when two "regional" teams moved from New York, one to San Francisco and the other to Los Angeles. Today, the 1946-1950 Oakland Oaks bread sets are listed in many catalogs "Remar Bread Oakland Oaks." By 1947, the name on the bread packages changed from the baking company's name of "Remar" to their brand name, "Sunbeam." Being so young then, I had never heard of "Remar Bread," only of "Sunbeam Bread." To go to an extreme, you could ask why the "Bond Bread" and "Tip Top Bread" sets are not called the "General Baking" sets after the name of their baking company. Scott, I hope I'm not rambling too much, but you are right in raising the issue of what is a "rookie" card. In the 1980s as the "rookie" card hype and demand rapidly increased, many started or returned to card collecting because they could find quantities of current cards and sell them at outrageous prices. In new cards issues, manufacturers even began to replace journeymen players with untried rookies and special "inserts." It was even debated whether the Mark Maguire Olympics baseball card from the 1984 Topps baseball set was his "rookie" card because he did not play in the Major Leagues until later. Desipte the tens of thousands of a single card being graded, Wow! -- the demand and prices just grew, with "rookie" cards and special inserts still a main selling factor of new sets today. Well, if you can get that kind of money for a common card, what about the "rookie" cards of retired players, especially those in the Hall of Fame? But these weren't that easy to find as those few who had been collecting for years before had found out. Without an adequate supply to meet the hyped-up demand for "rookie" cards, what did they do? First, they dropped the idea that a "rookie" card had to be issued the first year a player played professional baseball (those playing in the minor leagues also get paid). Such cards just did not exist for too many players. Then, they sidestepped the idea that a "rookie" had to be the actual first card a player appeared on. No adequate supply of regionally issued cards existed to touch the "rookie" card demand for old players. Well, what are often considered as "the major" companies had had wide scale distribution of cards with sets including these players. And, obviously while not available in the quantities of "rookie" cards of the 1980s, "rookie" cards could be found and sold to meet demand. The Jackie Robinson 1948 Leaf baseball card fit the requirement. Though this card is not from his first year playing in the Major Leagues (1947 was his Major League rookie year) and was issued a year after his 1947 Bond Bread insert card and some of his other Bond Bread giveaways, in the parlance of the trade, the 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson card is his "rookie card." Scott, again thank you for your post. Keep them coming. I took to heart what you said. You've helped me understand just how easily a label can be put on something that has different meanings to different people. That's one of the problems in distinguishing Bond Bread package insert and giveaway cards from the many others erroneously labeled as "Bond Bread" cards. In the future, I will attempt to not label cards merely as "rookie" cards, but will identify them as either: (1) issued during the player's first year playing professional baseball, (2) first year playing in the Major Leagues, (3) first card issued of player, or (4) first card issued by set manufacturer. That's a lot more words than saying "rookie" card, but at least it won't be so ambiguous that somebody could think we're talking about something. Mike Last edited by abctoo; 05-30-2020 at 06:55 AM. 
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#2
05-30-2020, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
The 1949 LEAF set is NOT a "1948 Leaf" issue. LEAF issued a Boxing set, Football set, and Pirates set in 1948. I collected all these cards as a very young fellow back then. The 98 subjects in the 1949 LEAF set were issued in two Series. The first 49 cards were issued in early Spring 1949. The 2nd Series of 49 cards were issued circa July - Aug 1949. Furthermore, this 2nd Series of cards were regionally limited to distribution only in the Boston area, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio (and perhaps the St. Louis area). I published an 8-page article on this set in the OLD CARDBOARD magazine (Issue #9). Check-it-out. So, please get your facts straight regarding these LEAF sets. TED Z T206 Reference .
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#3
05-30-2020, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
I had intended to post a picture of what many call the "rookie" card of Jackie Robinson but nodded off. When I woke up, I did a bing search for a "Jackie Robinson rookie card" to get a picture and found Old Sports Cards blog article entitled “Jackie Robinson Baseball Cards: The Ultimate Collectors Guide” at https://www.oldsportscards.com/jacki...aseball-cards/ . Old Sports Cards said: "1948 Leaf #79 Jackie Robinson Rookie Card / Estimated PSA 8 Value: $45,000 / There is only one true rookie card for Jackie Robinson, and that is the iconic 1948 Leaf." Still in a daze, I adjusted my post and submitted it without taking time to even add a picture. Ted, after I read your post, I retraced my steps to understand what I had done. One of the next items in the search was a direct link to the PSA company's website: https://www.psacard.com/cardfacts/ba...nson-79/21593/ That webpage said: “This is the only true rookie card of baseball's first African-American representative and hero to all,” and showed the following picture.  We both know the Leaf card was issued in 1949, not 1948. As I put in my response to Scott above, the use of a "rookie" label to identify a card is extremely misleading, and often used not merely inaccurately, but for profit. Even if someone thought that a true "rookie" card could only be one that was issued by a gum manufacturer (like Topps, Bowman or Leaf), the 1948 Swell Sports Thrills #3 Jackie Robinson would predate the 1949 Leaf card. Ted, if you could post a direct link to your OLDCARDBOARD article, I think many would appreciate it. I appreciate you keeping me straight. Thanks, Mike Last edited by abctoo; 05-30-2020 at 02:20 PM.
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#4
05-30-2020, 01:34 PM
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"Rookie"
I didn't want to misdirect the theme of this thread into another debate ...lol, but as it relates to the Bond Bread issue, I saw an Ebay listing this week that i thought was rather profound. It was for a 1947 Bond Bread Stan Musial (I believe) and the listing called it his "Pre-Rookie" card.
BTW...another "round corner" lot of Bond Bread, with a nice Jackie Robinson, sold for $899 this morning. With the Bond issue I have also seen several card grading companies lately that I have never heard of prior to digging into the sales of this issue. Since many here seem to have the experience and expertise on the Bond Bread issue, have any of you actually contacted any of the card grading to clarify the issue? Unfortunately there are so many existing graded cards that likely was mis-labeled previously it would likely be a huge embarrassment to them and their so-called expertise. Again historical usage will likely prevail, unlike poor Pluto which was demoted from Planetary status, despite decades of public "knowledge". Sorry for the ramble
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#5
05-30-2020, 01:53 PM
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to that end; we can all agree that THIS is Robinson's real rookie card, not the yellow background Leaf issue - despite the premium and notoriety of the Leaf card.
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#6
05-30-2020, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Last edited by abctoo; 05-30-2020 at 02:26 PM.
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#7
08-23-2020, 06:02 AM
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Where is this thread going?
To start, if one can't definitively say whether a card is coming from a bread package or a Sports Star Subjects box everything else that follows is irrelevant. So where is this going? Are we going to get a bunch of random pictures of rounded cards and square cards, pretend we know what packaging they originally came from, and then draw likely arbitrary conclusions about what differentiates them when any differentiating factors may be completely random or specific to the impact of the environment on the cards from the decades that followed their manufacturing, and then call this research?
Ted and Shaun have captured a lot of great background info on late 40's bread cards from their own personal experience and verifiable data coming from contemporaneous publications. Ted took the right approach when he dropped out of what is happening now when the process stopped becoming valid and reliable versus anything resembling academic research standards. In all likelihood the vast majority of distinctly rounded corner cards that have specific color/toning/contrast on the front and back are period to the late 40's. Yes, someone can try to imitate at least the front of these cards through cutting a square cornered card in a similar fashion and no third party grading service is going to get it right all of the time. It is what it is. Last edited by griffon512; 08-23-2020 at 06:12 AM.
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#8
08-23-2020, 04:14 PM
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There is a distinction between Bond Bread and "Sport Star Subjects" cards!
Quote:
Cards inserted into the bread packages lost some of that brilliance from being there. Cards in the Sport Star Subjects sets initially retained the cardstock brightness in their boxes, but as removed and handled the brilliance diminished. In his first post at the beginning of this thread, Ted stated: "A recent find of many of these SQUARE cards (BB and Movie Stars) suggest a 1949 issue date since Walker Cooper is depicted in this collection as a NY Giant (Cooper was traded to Cinci in the Summer of '49)." While he called it an "unknown set," he obviously was referring to the "square" corner cards of that version of the Sport Star Subjects sets not issued with "round" corners. He was mistaken though in assuming Walker Cooper was in the set. Thus from the beginning of this thread, he was unaware of a Sport Star Subjects set with "round" corners. Ted saved many from mistakes by brilliantly distinguishing 1947 Bond Bread package inserts from Festberg remainders with his white-back, round-corners vs. brown-toned back, square-corners definition. We all got it and we're all past that. Ted indicated he has withdrawn from participation in this thread. He leaves unanswered the confusion his long used, catch-all phrase created as it unwittingly encompasses the "round" corner Sport Star Subjects cards. They are not Bond Bread package inserts. 68Hawk's 08-20-20 Post #311 above, gave us an opportunity to hear what a grading card company would tell its customer about how it distinguishes Bond Bread cards from Sport Star Subjects cards. That question has been asked several times in this thread. From his pictures, it cannot be said which one of these two sets his card came from. At the present it is true though, that a card a grading company has authenticated as a Bond Bread insert has more value than identified otherwise. But remember, there are a couple of old timers who participated early on in this thread who said they obtained their Sport Star Subjects sets in 1947. You ask why post all of the pictures. On 04-04-2009 in Post #8 above, Ted posted the backs of a Bond Bread insert and a Festberg remainder side-by-side showing their distinctive "white" or "brown-toned" backs. Ted complained about the recent picture I posted showing the backs of a Bond Bread insert verses a Sport Star Subjects card. He will not post his own picture. The pictures now being posted by others will help fill in the gaps as an alternative resolution. This is not an exercise in futility nor a "take-sides" issue. Rather, we all can learn if we participate. Keep posting your pictures of the backs of Bond Bread inserts and Star Star Subjects cards. I am seeking a set of Sport Star Subjects cards in their original unopened boxes for two reasons. First, it will help establish the order of arrangement of the cards inside since most boxes were opened, the cards taken out, and often put back inside in a random order, not the original. Second, the full brightness of the white cardstock should be retained. Copyright 2020, by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521
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#9
05-30-2020, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
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#10
06-01-2020, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Thanks, Mike
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#11
06-01-2020, 08:19 AM
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1949 LEAF set
Mike
You can contact Lyman Hardeman at Old Cardboard and he will send you a copy of Issue #9, which has my article on the 1949 LEAF set. Also, click on my 1949 LEAF thread here on Net54 (121 interesting Posts).... https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ight=1949+LEAF  TED Z T206 Reference . Last edited by tedzan; 06-01-2020 at 03:29 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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#12
06-07-2020, 04:53 AM
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The 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread inserts and Cards and Photos from the era with like and similar pictures.
APPENDIX A – Part Three (Working) 1. The 48 card set (44 baseball players and 4 boxers) inserted in 1947-1948 into Homogenized Bond Bread packages [continued] Characteristics {continued]: 3 Corners a. Some with very crudely cut/die cut rounded corners (not to be confused with cards altered to make them appear as Bond Bread cards) b. Most with distinctive die cutting, but not of the quality of playing cards 4. Size The next scan is an example of the significant variation in the width of the Homogenized Bond Bread package insert cards. The scan after that shows that while the height of these insert cards does vary, the height variation is not as significant as with the width. The pictures are merely examples and not inclusive of all dimensional variations.   5. Die Cutting The die-cutting of the corners of the Bond Bread package insert cards was done by the same manufacturer that die-cut the card corners and boxes (packages) for the “Sport Star Subjects”, the “Screen Star Subjects”, and the boxes of the W673 “Navy Ships” sets. The “Navy Ships” set is mentioned in Posts #123 (box picture) and #126 (cards in set) above. The manufacturer was not the playing card company AARCO as some have suggested. Rather, it was a bigger company founded in the Nineteenth Century that used the same die-cutting for the packages of its myriad of products sold worldwide. The die-cutting process, that company's capabilities, and involvement will be explained in the main body of the text of this article. I do not understand what the difficulty has been in identifying the manufacturer. Some of its baseball products have been listed in a variety of catalogs including the 1960 ACC. 6. Printing Each player card was printed from several lead mold die cuts, which were replaced as each wore out. All of the die cuts used for an individual player were made from the same original screened print. Cards printed from a newly molded die cut are virtually identical. As the image on the lead mold wore down during the printing process, each individual cut would begin to show its own distinctive wear that progressively increased with its particular defeats becoming more pronounced as the printing continued until the die cut was replaced. Then everything would look “new” again, until that new cut began to wear down. With a potential of 1,000,000 cards inserted every day into a Bond Bread package, if all 48 cards were printed at the same time rather than in series of 12 so as to leave the customers with something new to find later on, that means 20,000 of each player card would be printed for just one day's bread supply. It would take up to 4 lead molded cuts per player to print just one day's supply. If they were printed in series of 12 cards in units of 4 per sheet, then four times the amount of die cuts, or up to 12 cuts would be used to print the cards needed for just a day's supply of bread. Not enough of these cards can now be found to determine which die cut printed which individual card. However, if a defect is visible on one card and it shows up progressively worse on another card, it is not unreasonable to conclude both were printed from the same cut. With these cards, the degree of visible wear is not a sign of a reprint. Rather, wear is only indicative of where in the life of the die cut a card was printed. Again, each die cut for an individual player started out virtually identical because they were made from the same halftone print or die cast (mold). This analysis may go against the grain of many, but one cannot expect a single printing plate was used to produce the 30,000,000 cards needed each month? The cards are not of a high quality of printing and not dissimilar to the printing techniques of a newspaper. The die cuts were locked together to create a printing plate, with individual cuts replaced as they wore. Other types of printing defects can include “white spots” and streaks caused by a fleck of paper from the paperstock (or some other foreign material) temporarily lodging on the die cut. The spot would remain until it was dislodged by incoming paperstock, the plate, or more often by a printer whose functions included routinely wiping the plates to remove such “spots.” Cards with such “spots” can vary vastly, with spots appearing anyplace. If the stray material had lodged on a focal point of a picture, it would appear more predominate. Spots can often be exaggerated when printed from a degenerated die cut as the image being transferred may already lack the “fresh” appearance and may transfer more ink than a newly molded one. Condition: a. Bond Bread package insert cards were individually handled – in the factory putting them into the packages, transporting them and shelving the loaves of bread in the store. The customer took a loaf from a shelf, moved it to the cash register along with other purchases, and it was probably bagged or boxed, then transported home. There were no card sleeves around when the package was opened. Rather a card taken out of the package, and probably passed around for all to see. If you were lucky enough to have an empty cigar box or some similar container, you might have keep your cards inside. Of course, these along with other things were handed to your friends and family to see. Unless you had access to someone who could use more than one loaf at a time, each single card was a specialty by itself and properly shared with all. If there was no interest in it, it was thrown away. I know of no Homogenized Bond Bread package insert card that is pristine. Rather they are used cards, mostly not in a high grade, but of high scarcity because of what most people do with old or worn out things. b. Contrarily, the same cards from the “Sport Star Subjects” set are found in higher grades. They came packaged, and the container could be used to “protect the cards from the normal wear and tear that Bond Bread package inserts suffered. Most cards with white-backs and rounded corners attributed as “Bond Bread” cards in a grade of “Ex” or better apparently come from the “Sport Star Subjects” set, not Bond Bread packages. c. Bond Bread is not fancy bread and contains little fat or other ingredients that would stain a card (such as a glaze, chocolate or grease might do). 2. 1947 Team Photo Packs [continued] : Some of the boxers and some of the action shots of baseball players in the Bond Bread package insert set and other sets were discussed elsewhere in October 2014 in net54baseball.com's thread, “1947 Bond Bread Exhibits, started by member Is7plus. There member Exhibitman posted the following 8x10 inch glossy photo of the Marcel Cerdan picture of the type appearing in the Bond Bread package insert set and on other cards.  Exhibitman noted that he had “a couple dozen boxers . . . with the same font and sharing the images with some sets.” Cerdan's picture had written on it in ink, “DECEASED.” Cerdan was killed in an airplane crash on October 28, 1949 on his way to visit his friend, French singer Édith Piaf, before entering training camp for his rematch with Jake LaMotta for the middleweight championship. Exhibitman also posted in that thread what he described as “Bob Feller from a multisport picture pack [printed, around 7 x 9]” followed by a picture of Feller which is a more complete version of the cropped Bond Bread Feller picture. Below in this appendix will be more details about such printed pictures, which are often mistakenly called “Bond Bread Premiums (6½x9 inches)” and sometimes sized at 6½x8½ inches. Anyone who can post a scan of either the Photo Pack that contained 8x10 inch boxing cards or the multisport picture pack of the 6½-7 x 8½-9 inch printed sheets, please do so. It would help us all. Regarding the other Bond Bread Set (the Special Jackie Robinson giveaway issue), below are scans of another ACME original photo used in that set.   3. A Numbered Card About three weeks ago, I found on the internet the card shown in the scans below. Its offering merely provided a picture of the front of the card with the description: “1947 Homogenized Bond Bread Bobby Bobbie Doerr Card.” As you can see, the card is printed with the number “SH145” in the lower right front corner. It has the complete picture of Bobby Doerr that was cropped in the Bond Bread set. When it arrived, it measured 3x5 inches. Does anyone have any similarly numbered cards of any player or sport? Perhaps a list of cards in the set? Could you post scans or identify any other cards? Thanks, Mike    Watch for the next posting of this article. Copyright 2020, by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521 Last edited by abctoo; 06-07-2020 at 04:56 AM.
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#13
06-07-2020, 10:30 AM
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please explain
Maybe I missed it in the novella, but it is unclear to me how you are distinguishing "Sport Star Subjects" from "Bond Bread." Please explain it clearly so a layman could make the distinction if analyzing the two different sets, or maybe someone else can if there is validity to it. If there is not a clear distinction in appearance than the presumption you are making below is just based on how packaging differences are likely to impact the condition of the cards, rather than other objective data.
"Most cards with white-backs and rounded corners attributed as 'Bond Bread' cards in a grade of 'Ex' or better apparently come from the 'Sport Star Subjects' set, not Bond Bread packages."
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