1947 BOND BREAD and its "imposters"....show us your cards ?

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Mike
The 1949 LEAF set is NOT a "1948 Leaf" issue. LEAF issued a Boxing set, Football set, and Pirates set in 1948. I collected all these cards as a very young fellow back then.

The 98 subjects in the 1949 LEAF set were issued in two Series. The first 49 cards were issued in early Spring 1949. The 2nd Series of 49 cards were issued circa July - Aug 1949.
Furthermore, this 2nd Series of cards were regionally limited to distribution only in the Boston area, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio (and perhaps the St. Louis area). I published an 8-page
article on this set in the OLD CARDBOARD magazine (Issue #9). Check-it-out.
So, please get your facts straight regarding these LEAF sets.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted, you are absolutely correct. I make no excuses and should have been more careful. I did exactly what my response to Scott said should not be done.

I had intended to post a picture of what many call the "rookie" card of Jackie Robinson but nodded off. When I woke up, I did a bing search for a "Jackie Robinson rookie card" to get a picture and found Old Sports Cards blog article entitled “Jackie Robinson Baseball Cards: The Ultimate Collectors Guide” at
https://www.oldsportscards.com/jacki...aseball-cards/ . Old Sports Cards said: "1948 Leaf #79 Jackie Robinson Rookie Card / Estimated PSA 8 Value: $45,000 / There is only one true rookie card for Jackie Robinson, and that is the iconic 1948 Leaf." Still in a daze, I adjusted my post and submitted it without taking time to even add a picture.

Ted, after I read your post, I retraced my steps to understand what I had done. One of the next items in the search was a direct link to the PSA company's website: https://www.psacard.com/cardfacts/ba...nson-79/21593/ That webpage said: “This is the only true rookie card of baseball's first African-American representative and hero to all,” and showed the following picture.



We both know the Leaf card was issued in 1949, not 1948. As I put in my response to Scott above, the use of a "rookie" label to identify a card is extremely misleading, and often used not merely inaccurately, but for profit. Even if someone thought that a true "rookie" card could only be one that was issued by a gum manufacturer (like Topps, Bowman or Leaf), the 1948 Swell Sports Thrills #3 Jackie Robinson would predate the 1949 Leaf card.

Ted, if you could post a direct link to your OLDCARDBOARD article, I think many would appreciate it. I appreciate you keeping me straight.

Thanks, Mike

[Scott Janzen]

I didn't want to misdirect the theme of this thread into another debate ...lol, but as it relates to the Bond Bread issue, I saw an Ebay listing this week that i thought was rather profound. It was for a 1947 Bond Bread Stan Musial (I believe) and the listing called it his "Pre-Rookie" card.

BTW...another "round corner" lot of Bond Bread, with a nice Jackie Robinson, sold for $899 this morning. With the Bond issue I have also seen several card grading companies lately that I have never heard of prior to digging into the sales of this issue.

Since many here seem to have the experience and expertise on the Bond Bread issue, have any of you actually contacted any of the card grading to clarify the issue? Unfortunately there are so many existing graded cards that likely was mis-labeled previously it would likely be a huge embarrassment to them and their so-called expertise. Again historical usage will likely prevail, unlike poor Pluto which was demoted from Planetary status, despite decades of public "knowledge". Sorry for the ramble

[phikappapsi]

to that end; we can all agree that THIS is Robinson's real rookie card, not the yellow background Leaf issue - despite the premium and notoriety of the Leaf card.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by phikappapsi

to that end; we can all agree that THIS is Robinson's real rookie card, not the yellow background Leaf issue - despite the premium and notoriety of the Leaf card.

Joe, you're beating me to my next post. From the scan, we cannot tell if the card was a Bond Bread package insert card or from the "Sport Star Subjects" set. Some in this thread have said they purchased the "Sport Star Subjects" set in 1947, while others say it was issued in 1949. One thing is certain. The individual cards taken out of Bond Bread packages were handled by more people than cards in the "Sports Star Subjects" set and generally should show more signs of wear. We should not assume that just because a card has a white back and rounded corners that it came from a Bond Bread package.

[griffon512]

To start, if one can't definitively say whether a card is coming from a bread package or a Sports Star Subjects box everything else that follows is irrelevant. So where is this going? Are we going to get a bunch of random pictures of rounded cards and square cards, pretend we know what packaging they originally came from, and then draw likely arbitrary conclusions about what differentiates them when any differentiating factors may be completely random or specific to the impact of the environment on the cards from the decades that followed their manufacturing, and then call this research?

Ted and Shaun have captured a lot of great background info on late 40's bread cards from their own personal experience and verifiable data coming from contemporaneous publications. Ted took the right approach when he dropped out of what is happening now when the process stopped becoming valid and reliable versus anything resembling academic research standards. In all likelihood the vast majority of distinctly rounded corner cards that have specific color/toning/contrast on the front and back are period to the late 40's. Yes, someone can try to imitate at least the front of these cards through cutting a square cornered card in a similar fashion and no third party grading service is going to get it right all of the time. It is what it is.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by griffon512

To start, if one can't definitively say whether a card is coming from a bread package or a Sports Star Subjects box everything else that follows is irrelevant. So where is this going? Are we going to get a bunch of random pictures of rounded cards and square cards, pretend we know what packaging they originally came from, and then draw likely arbitrary conclusions about what differentiates them when any differentiating factors may be completely random or specific to the impact of the environment on the cards from the decades that followed their manufacturing, and then call this research?

Ted and Shaun have captured a lot of great background info on late 40's bread cards from their own personal experience and verifiable data coming from contemporaneous publications. Ted took the right approach when he dropped out of what is happening now when the process stopped becoming valid and reliable versus anything resembling academic research standards. In all likelihood the vast majority of distinctly rounded corner cards that have specific color/toning/contrast on the front and back are period to the late 40's. Yes, someone can try to imitate at least the front of these cards through cutting a square cornered card in a similar fashion and no third party grading service is going to get it right all of the time. It is what it is.

The primary difference between 1947 Bond Bread package insert cards and cards from the Sport Star Subject set is in the intensity of the brightness of the white cardstock. Both were printed by Meyercord Co. from the same initial half-tone and on the same white card stock used throughout the months of printing.

Cards inserted into the bread packages lost some of that brilliance from being there. Cards in the Sport Star Subjects sets initially retained the cardstock brightness in their boxes, but as removed and handled the brilliance diminished.

In his first post at the beginning of this thread, Ted stated: "A recent find of many of these SQUARE cards (BB and Movie Stars) suggest a 1949 issue date since Walker Cooper is depicted in this collection as a NY Giant (Cooper was traded to Cinci in the Summer of '49)." While he called it an "unknown set," he obviously was referring to the "square" corner cards of that version of the Sport Star Subjects sets not issued with "round" corners. He was mistaken though in assuming Walker Cooper was in the set. Thus from the beginning of this thread, he was unaware of a Sport Star Subjects set with "round" corners.

Ted saved many from mistakes by brilliantly distinguishing 1947 Bond Bread package inserts from Festberg remainders with his white-back, round-corners vs. brown-toned back, square-corners definition. We all got it and we're all past that.

Ted indicated he has withdrawn from participation in this thread. He leaves unanswered the confusion his long used, catch-all phrase created as it unwittingly encompasses the "round" corner Sport Star Subjects cards. They are not Bond Bread package inserts.

68Hawk's 08-20-20 Post #311 above, gave us an opportunity to hear what a grading card company would tell its customer about how it distinguishes Bond Bread cards from Sport Star Subjects cards. That question has been asked several times in this thread. From his pictures, it cannot be said which one of these two sets his card came from. At the present it is true though, that a card a grading company has authenticated as a Bond Bread insert has more value than identified otherwise. But remember, there are a couple of old timers who participated early on in this thread who said they obtained their Sport Star Subjects sets in 1947.

You ask why post all of the pictures. On 04-04-2009 in Post #8 above, Ted posted the backs of a Bond Bread insert and a Festberg remainder side-by-side showing their distinctive "white" or "brown-toned" backs. Ted complained about the recent picture I posted showing the backs of a Bond Bread insert verses a Sport Star Subjects card. He will not post his own picture. The pictures now being posted by others will help fill in the gaps as an alternative resolution. This is not an exercise in futility nor a "take-sides" issue. Rather, we all can learn if we participate. Keep posting your pictures of the backs of Bond Bread inserts and Star Star Subjects cards.

I am seeking a set of Sport Star Subjects cards in their original unopened boxes for two reasons. First, it will help establish the order of arrangement of the cards inside since most boxes were opened, the cards taken out, and often put back inside in a random order, not the original. Second, the full brightness of the white cardstock should be retained.

Copyright 2020, by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521

[griffon512]

"intensity of the brightness of the white card stock." I give up. I'm waving the white flag (a more intense white than typically seen in homogenized bread cards, must be a sports star subject flag from 1947 with rounded corners). I hope others do the same.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by griffon512

"intensity of the brightness of the white card stock." I give up. I'm waving the white flag (a more intense white than typically seen in homogenized bread cards, must be a sports star subject flag from 1947 with rounded corners). I hope others do the same.

What we see is the perceptional result of light radiating on our eyes from the visible region of the spectrum. In 1931, the Commission Internationale de L’Éclairage (CIE) adopted standard curves for color that specify how the various wavelengths of light coming from an object (its radiance) can be transformed into a set of three numbers that specify a color (its “spectral power distribution” or SPD). The eleven basic color categories are white, black, red, green, yellow, blue, brown, purple, pink, orange, and gray, but each color has tens of thousands or more variations.

The CIE defines “brightness” as “the attribute of a visual sensation according to which an area appears to emit more or less light.” CIE defined a numerically standard curve to measure such luminance. Integrating the set of three numbers that specify a color (the SPD) with the measured “brightness” of an object results in a specific CIE luminance number for the object. For more details, see http://poynton.ca/ColorFAQ.html

In other words, we can measure the differences between the brightness of the Bond Bread cards after they came out of the packages against the brightness of cards fresh from a Sport Star Subjects box. The referenced website article above also provides guidance on how to adjust any scans that get posted here to a uniform standard so that one can be compared against another.

I don't know which “white flag” you are waving. Is it a Bond Bread one or a Sport Star Subjects one? Providing more scans of cards is better than giving up.

I do know that for more than 10 years, many people insisted in this thread the Festberg remainders were nothing more than reprints printed after 1980. My Post #194 above of 05-07-2020 (only a little more than 3 months ago, less time than it took to print the cards) provided scientific evidence to establish otherwise. Below is one of the pictures from that post, a Festberg card on top of a strip of new white paper taken under ultraviolet light.



The card itself does not glow because it does not have the chemical “brighteners” that have been added to paper since 1951, while the white strip underneath glows bright, an indicator of added brighteners.

Perhaps my May 2020 posting was confusing because here and there I used terms like “brighteners” and “brightness.” We will be able to measure the actual difference in luminance between Bond Bread and Sport Star Subject cards using a less rudimentary technology than an ultraviolet light (used here only to determine whether or not chemical brighteners had been added).

Of course, it's easy to give up if you really don't care about the differences between 1947 Bond Bread package insert cards and cards of the Sport Star Subjects set. It may be easier to just spend four or five figures on something called a “rookie” card rather than actually know what it is. It is not reasonable to discourage those who might want to know because you do not care.

Keep on posting the backs of Bond Bread cards and Sport Star subject cards for those of us who care.

Thanks,

Mike

Copyright 2020 by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by Scott Janzen

I didn't want to misdirect the theme of this thread into another debate ...lol, but as it relates to the Bond Bread issue, I saw an Ebay listing this week that i thought was rather profound. It was for a 1947 Bond Bread Stan Musial (I believe) and the listing called it his "Pre-Rookie" card.

BTW...another "round corner" lot of Bond Bread, with a nice Jackie Robinson, sold for $899 this morning. With the Bond issue I have also seen several card grading companies lately that I have never heard of prior to digging into the sales of this issue.

Since many here seem to have the experience and expertise on the Bond Bread issue, have any of you actually contacted any of the card grading to clarify the issue? Unfortunately there are so many existing graded cards that likely was mis-labeled previously it would likely be a huge embarrassment to them and their so-called expertise. Again historical usage will likely prevail, unlike poor Pluto which was demoted from Planetary status, despite decades of public "knowledge". Sorry for the ramble

These companies make no distinction between Bond Bread issues and the cards in the "Sport Star Subjects" set. What people are buying may not be what they think it is.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by abctoo

. . ..
Ted, if you could post a direct link to your OLDCARDBOARD article, I think many would appreciate it.

Ted, if you do not have a direct internet link to your article on the 1949 Leaf issue, are you able to scan that article and post it here? This thread is read and quoted by many. Get your message out. While OLD CARDBOARD website is popular, its magazine is obscure and not read by many. I'd hate to see someone make another $45,000 mistake in accepting PSA's definition that the only true Jackie Robinson rookie card is the 1948 1949 Leaf #79 Jackie Robinson card.

Thanks, Mike

[tedzan]

Mike
You can contact Lyman Hardeman at Old Cardboard and he will send you a copy of Issue #9, which has my article on the 1949 LEAF set.

Also, click on my 1949 LEAF thread here on Net54 (121 interesting Posts).... https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ight=1949+LEAF





TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[abctoo]

The 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread inserts and Cards and Photos from the era with like and similar pictures.

APPENDIX A – Part Three (Working)

1. The 48 card set (44 baseball players and 4 boxers) inserted in 1947-1948 into Homogenized Bond Bread packages
[continued]

Characteristics {continued]:

3 Corners
a. Some with very crudely cut/die cut rounded corners (not to be confused with cards altered to make them appear as Bond Bread cards)
b. Most with distinctive die cutting, but not of the quality of playing cards

4. Size

The next scan is an example of the significant variation in the width of the Homogenized Bond Bread package insert cards. The scan after that shows that while the height of these insert cards does vary, the height variation is not as significant as with the width. The pictures are merely examples and not inclusive of all dimensional variations.





5. Die Cutting

The die-cutting of the corners of the Bond Bread package insert cards was done by the same manufacturer that die-cut the card corners and boxes (packages) for the “Sport Star Subjects”, the “Screen Star Subjects”, and the boxes of the W673 “Navy Ships” sets. The “Navy Ships” set is mentioned in Posts #123 (box picture) and #126 (cards in set) above. The manufacturer was not the playing card company AARCO as some have suggested. Rather, it was a bigger company founded in the Nineteenth Century that used the same die-cutting for the packages of its myriad of products sold worldwide. The die-cutting process, that company's capabilities, and involvement will be explained in the main body of the text of this article. I do not understand what the difficulty has been in identifying the manufacturer. Some of its baseball products have been listed in a variety of catalogs including the 1960 ACC.

6. Printing

Each player card was printed from several lead mold die cuts, which were replaced as each wore out. All of the die cuts used for an individual player were made from the same original screened print. Cards printed from a newly molded die cut are virtually identical. As the image on the lead mold wore down during the printing process, each individual cut would begin to show its own distinctive wear that progressively increased with its particular defeats becoming more pronounced as the printing continued until the die cut was replaced. Then everything would look “new” again, until that new cut began to wear down.

With a potential of 1,000,000 cards inserted every day into a Bond Bread package, if all 48 cards were printed at the same time rather than in series of 12 so as to leave the customers with something new to find later on, that means 20,000 of each player card would be printed for just one day's bread supply. It would take up to 4 lead molded cuts per player to print just one day's supply. If they were printed in series of 12 cards in units of 4 per sheet, then four times the amount of die cuts, or up to 12 cuts would be used to print the cards needed for just a day's supply of bread. Not enough of these cards can now be found to determine which die cut printed which individual card. However, if a defect is visible on one card and it shows up progressively worse on another card, it is not unreasonable to conclude both were printed from the same cut. With these cards, the degree of visible wear is not a sign of a reprint. Rather, wear is only indicative of where in the life of the die cut a card was printed. Again, each die cut for an individual player started out virtually identical because they were made from the same halftone print or die cast (mold).

This analysis may go against the grain of many, but one cannot expect a single printing plate was used to produce the 30,000,000 cards needed each month? The cards are not of a high quality of printing and not dissimilar to the printing techniques of a newspaper. The die cuts were locked together to create a printing plate, with individual cuts replaced as they wore.

Other types of printing defects can include “white spots” and streaks caused by a fleck of paper from the paperstock (or some other foreign material) temporarily lodging on the die cut. The spot would remain until it was dislodged by incoming paperstock, the plate, or more often by a printer whose functions included routinely wiping the plates to remove such “spots.” Cards with such “spots” can vary vastly, with spots appearing anyplace. If the stray material had lodged on a focal point of a picture, it would appear more predominate. Spots can often be exaggerated when printed from a degenerated die cut as the image being transferred may already lack the “fresh” appearance and may transfer more ink than a newly molded one.

Condition:

a. Bond Bread package insert cards were individually handled – in the factory putting them into the packages, transporting them and shelving the loaves of bread in the store. The customer took a loaf from a shelf, moved it to the cash register along with other purchases, and it was probably bagged or boxed, then transported home. There were no card sleeves around when the package was opened. Rather a card taken out of the package, and probably passed around for all to see. If you were lucky enough to have an empty cigar box or some similar container, you might have keep your cards inside. Of course, these along with other things were handed to your friends and family to see. Unless you had access to someone who could use more than one loaf at a time, each single card was a specialty by itself and properly shared with all. If there was no interest in it, it was thrown away. I know of no Homogenized Bond Bread package insert card that is pristine. Rather they are used cards, mostly not in a high grade, but of high scarcity because of what most people do with old or worn out things.

b. Contrarily, the same cards from the “Sport Star Subjects” set are found in higher grades. They came packaged, and the container could be used to “protect the cards from the normal wear and tear that Bond Bread package inserts suffered. Most cards with white-backs and rounded corners attributed as “Bond Bread” cards in a grade of “Ex” or better apparently come from the “Sport Star Subjects” set, not Bond Bread packages.

c. Bond Bread is not fancy bread and contains little fat or other ingredients that would stain a card (such as a glaze, chocolate or grease might do).


2. 1947 Team Photo Packs [continued] :

Some of the boxers and some of the action shots of baseball players in the Bond Bread package insert set and other sets were discussed elsewhere in October 2014 in net54baseball.com's thread, “1947 Bond Bread Exhibits, started by member Is7plus. There member Exhibitman posted the following 8x10 inch glossy photo of the Marcel Cerdan picture of the type appearing in the Bond Bread package insert set and on other cards.



Exhibitman noted that he had “a couple dozen boxers . . . with the same font and sharing the images with some sets.” Cerdan's picture had written on it in ink, “DECEASED.” Cerdan was killed in an airplane crash on October 28, 1949 on his way to visit his friend, French singer Édith Piaf, before entering training camp for his rematch with Jake LaMotta for the middleweight championship.

Exhibitman also posted in that thread what he described as “Bob Feller from a multisport picture pack [printed, around 7 x 9]” followed by a picture of Feller which is a more complete version of the cropped Bond Bread Feller picture. Below in this appendix will be more details about such printed pictures, which are often mistakenly called “Bond Bread Premiums (6½x9 inches)” and sometimes sized at 6½x8½ inches.

Anyone who can post a scan of either the Photo Pack that contained 8x10 inch boxing cards or the multisport picture pack of the 6½-7 x 8½-9 inch printed sheets, please do so. It would help us all.

Regarding the other Bond Bread Set (the Special Jackie Robinson giveaway issue), below are scans of another ACME original photo used in that set.






3. A Numbered Card

About three weeks ago, I found on the internet the card shown in the scans below. Its offering merely provided a picture of the front of the card with the description: “1947 Homogenized Bond Bread Bobby Bobbie Doerr Card.” As you can see, the card is printed with the number “SH145” in the lower right front corner. It has the complete picture of Bobby Doerr that was cropped in the Bond Bread set. When it arrived, it measured 3x5 inches. Does anyone have any similarly numbered cards of any player or sport? Perhaps a list of cards in the set? Could you post scans or identify any other cards? Thanks, Mike







Watch for the next posting of this article.

Copyright 2020, by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521

[griffon512]

Maybe I missed it in the novella, but it is unclear to me how you are distinguishing "Sport Star Subjects" from "Bond Bread." Please explain it clearly so a layman could make the distinction if analyzing the two different sets, or maybe someone else can if there is validity to it. If there is not a clear distinction in appearance than the presumption you are making below is just based on how packaging differences are likely to impact the condition of the cards, rather than other objective data.

"Most cards with white-backs and rounded corners attributed as 'Bond Bread' cards in a grade of 'Ex' or better apparently come from the 'Sport Star Subjects' set, not Bond Bread packages."

[cardinalcollector]

The SH45 card of Bobby Doerr is a 1975 Sport Hobbyist collectors issue. They have been cataloged in the SCD catalog.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by cardinalcollector

The SH45 card of Bobby Doerr is a 1975 Sport Hobbyist collectors issue. They have been cataloged in the SCD catalog.

Thank you. It's not in my 1988 SCD edition.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by griffon512

Maybe I missed it in the novella, but it is unclear to me how you are distinguishing "Sport Star Subjects" from "Bond Bread." Please explain it clearly so a layman could make the distinction if analyzing the two different sets, or maybe someone else can if there is validity to it. If there is not a clear distinction in appearance than the presumption you are making below is just based on how packaging differences are likely to impact the condition of the cards, rather than other objective data.

"Most cards with white-backs and rounded corners attributed as 'Bond Bread' cards in a grade of 'Ex' or better apparently come from the 'Sport Star Subjects' set, not Bond Bread packages."

The Bond Bread package insert cards and the Sport Star Subjects set were not issued on the same date. Right now, the market place and particularly those hyping their cards for sale and card grading services do not distinguish between them. That has caused the all of these cards to be attributed to Bond Bread. Without a distinction between the two issues, the current market price for these cards is inaccurately derived from what people think Bond Bread insert cards are worth even though they may be unwittingly buying cards from the Sport Star Subjects set. Higher or lower, each set has to find its own value in an honest marketplace based on what it is and not rumor, misdescription or the hyperbole of sellers and grading card services.

As stated in Appendix A - Part One (Working) above: "The purpose of this Appendix is not to put names on these sets. That will be done in the body of this article as its parts are posted. Rather, this Appendix is an attempt to identify all of the issues that have been attributed in someway or another as a “1947 Bond Bread “ card or set."

Appendix A - Part Three (Working), to which you responded, provided a brief description of the repeated use of initially identical molded lead die cuts derived from the same master halftone print to produce the large quantities of an individual player's cards over time and how such cuts became flawed, wore down during the printing process and were replaced. That process will be fully explained in the main text.

Part Three of this Appendix, also briefly identified the problems with attributing the voluminous quantities printed of a player's card to an individual die-cut. Details about the printing were left to the main text. The Sport Star Subject cards were printed in much smaller quantities than the Bond Bread cards. By best estimate those printings were in quantities equivalent to about one or two days supply of cards that would be needed for cards to be inserted in Bond Bread packages. [Added note: The equivalent of about 20,000 sets makes up one day's supply of bread package inserts or only about 4-5 die cuts per player per day.]

The specific wear and other flaws on the small quantity of die cuts used in the printing of the Sport Star Subjects sets can be identified so that some distinction can be made between the two sets. Otherwise, all of the cards look the same. You and anyone else can help by posting scans of cards that came from Sport Star Subjects boxes. Such detail cannot be a one person project, but must be a collaborative effort. Together, we can get to an end of this.

Griffon512, Thanks for your post,

Mike

[abctoo]

The 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread inserts and Cards and Photos from the era with like and similar pictures.

APPENDIX A – Part Four (Working)

4. “Sport Star Subjects” 48 card set, issued in a series of 4 boxes of 12 different cards each.

Characteristics:

1. printed on one side

2. White Paper Stock, of the same low quality as the Bond Bread cards

3. Corners

a. Square, or
b. Rounded, with the same distinctive die-cut of most of the Bond Bread insert cards.

4. Size

a. The rounded cornered cards are the same size as the Bond Bread insert cards with the same distinctive die-cutting.

5. Printing

a. As with the Bond Bread insert cards, a player's picture was printed on white paperstock from molded lead die-cuts engraved from the same half-tone picture. The sharpness of the original picture molded in each lead die-cut degraded a little bit each time its raised parts transferred ink to the paper. When sufficiently deteriorated, a die-cut was replaced with another one, virtually identical to the one being replaced, except with its image not yet worn down. With hundreds of die-cuts used to print the tremendous quantity of Bond Bread cards, the insufficient supply of such cards now makes it virtually impossible to identify any particular Bond Bread insert card to a particular die-cut.

However, with only a limited number of die-cuts used to print the Sport Star Subjects set, its die-cuts can be identified from the individual wear and other printing defects shown that occurred during its printing process. High resolution scans of cards that can be assured to have come from Sport Star Subject set boxes could be compared to unidentified cards to see if the Sport Star Subjects defects are present. If yes, then the card comes from a Sport Star Subject set. Of course, such method would not be 100% accurate because the first cards printed from a new die-cut would not have the pronounced progressive printing defects of those printed later from the same die-cut.

Anyone who can provide high resolutions scans of the fronts of any Sport Star Subjects card (not Bond Bread card) are welcomed to post them here so the comparison can begin. Perhaps, a master list of Sport Star Subjects cards will evolve that will eliminate the confusion between the two sets.

6. Packages (Boxes?)

a. Four Packages of 12 cards each, the entire set issued in separate series

i. Series 1 – Green
ii. Series 2 – Red
iii. Series 3 – Brown
iv. Series 4 – Blue

b. The boxes and the cards were die-cut by the same company that die-cut the Bond Bread package insert cards.

c. The back of the package

i. Top right back of each package is printed with “No. 600” regardless of series.



ii. Initially, all of the backs of boxes I had seen were of the variety shown above. At first glance, it appeared to be a printing error as what was printed near the top left was not clearly readable. Many of us attempted to “translate” the unintelligible text. All of the boxes of the Screen Star Subjects set I had seen at that time also had the same imprinting – some gibberish with “No. 600,” the same number as the Sport Star Subjects set. Subsequently, I located a Screen Star Subjects set which made clear what the gibberish was.



It was an intentional obscuring of the text “W.S. / N.Y.” shown in the scan above. The question now becomes whether the Sport Star Subjects set was likewise initially printed with the “W.S. / N.Y.” imprint or whether it started out in a package already containing the obliterated text. Anyone who can produce a scan of the front and back of a Sports Star Subjects package with the “W.S. / N.Y.” imprint is requested to do so. Right now, we can only assume the Sports Star Subjects set package was printed from artwork with the readable indicia shown on some of Screen Star Subjects packages already obliterated.

The back of the Series 2 package of the W673 Navy Ships / Airplanes set of 36 cards shown in Posts #123 and #126 above is inscribed, “A.J. WIlDMAN & SON. NEW YORK 11. N.Y.. NADE IN U.S.A., No. 1841”.

Caution: Do not attempt to draw premature conclusions from what you know about the date of issue of the Navy Ships / Airplanes set to establish a date for either the Sport Star Subjects or the Screen Star Subjects sets. It's a bit more complicated than that and will be explained in the main text.

d. Which sports cards were in which Box?

i. Few boxes have survived intact. Most of those were opened one, two or more at the time. The same cards were not necessarily returned to the box from which they came. Many collectors sorted them by team or in alphabetical order. Sheet reconstruction may help resolve the issue.


More to come.

Copyright 2020, by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by griffon512

Maybe I missed it in the novella, but it is unclear to me how you are distinguishing "Sport Star Subjects" from "Bond Bread." Please explain it clearly so a layman could make the distinction if analyzing the two different sets, or maybe someone else can if there is validity to it. If there is not a clear distinction in appearance than the presumption you are making below is just based on how packaging differences are likely to impact the condition of the cards, rather than other objective data.

Okay James, You want an answer on how to distinguish the Bond Bread insert cards from Sport Star Subjects cards. I assume we all want the same for the Festberg remainders and other related cards too.

While picture defects in the halftone master used to make all of the molded lead die-cuts used to print the Bond Bread inserts, the Sport Star Subjects, and the Festberg remainders will all be consistent throughout, the specific die-cut defects of those cuts used to print the Sport Star Subject cards will be different than those on the die-cuts used to print original Bond Bread inserts. The Festberg remainder find is reported to have contained less than 5,000 of each card, which could mean that only one die-cut per player was used in printing the cards in the hoard.

We need genuine examples of Bond Bread insert cards to compare against genuine examples of Sport Star Subjects cards to see what non-consistent printing flaws appear on Sport Star Subjects cards. Only one of each original Bond Bread insert card would be sufficient to identify the differences. However, with more than one die-cut per player used to print the estimated quantity of Sport Star Subjects sets made, more than one of each player card from the Sport Star Subjects set will be needed to fully identify all varieties. The cards from one Sport Star Subjects set will give us a good start.

We all owe a thanks to David M., member GasHouseGang, who had the foresight to give us in Post #216 above pictures of the complete Sport Star Subjects set that sold on eBay in May 2020 for $4545. David did the best he could, and acknowledges no higher resolution scans were available from eBay. Those scans may help us identify some rudimentary die-cut flaws distinctions of that set, but without high resolution scans the real details cannot be seen. Scans of cards should be made of cards taken outside of any sleeves, slabs or anything else that could distort the image.

Here is what I propose:

Ted, you started this. You have original Bond Bread cards taken from Bond Bread packages that you collected way back then. If you would kindly post a high resolution scan of the front of each different original package insert card you have, we would have a base from which to identify the distinctive printing flaws of Sport Star Subjects cards that are not on the master halftone from which the die-cuts used to print all of the cards were made. From other scans you have posted in this thread, it seems that you are able to provide sufficiently high resolution to make distinctions even when you post cards in groups of four, six or so. You know the limitations of your scanner and can post accordingly. If you cannot post all the different cards, perhaps, others can fill in the blanks?

I will post most of the cards from the Festberg remainders, as I have many of them loose in card sleeves.

I would ask anyone who has access to any card(s) from the Sports Star Subjects set to post a good scan of the front of the card(s). Both rounded and square corner cards are needed.

If anyone has any other ideas on how we can do this, let us know.

Thanks, Mike

[phikappapsi]

man this has been a lot of words for an "i dunno"

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by griffon512

Maybe I missed it in the novella, but it is unclear to me how you are distinguishing "Sport Star Subjects" from "Bond Bread." Please explain it clearly so a layman could make the distinction if analyzing the two different sets, or maybe someone else can if there is validity to it. If there is not a clear distinction in appearance than the presumption you are making below is just based on how packaging differences are likely to impact the condition of the cards, rather than other objective data.

"Most cards with white-backs and rounded corners attributed as 'Bond Bread' cards in a grade of 'Ex' or better apparently come from the 'Sport Star Subjects' set, not Bond Bread packages."

The 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread inserts and Cards and Photos with like and similar pictures.

Distinguishing the Bond Bread package inserts from “Sport Star Subjects” cards

An easy method exists for telling apart many of the Bond Bread package insert cards from cards in the “Sport Star Subjects” set, but it does not work for distinguishing all cards from these two sets.

People who actually obtained Bond Bread cards from bread packages, and those who purchased such cards directly from them, have said the backs are white and without any bread stains. That tells only half the story. While there are few bread stains on any of the Bond Bread package inserts, all were affected by being next to the bread. My original bond bread cards and those I have seen, as well as the scans of all of cards for which there is direct evidence that they were actually obtained from Bond Bread packages, show a less bright white back than the 'Sport Star Subjects” cards in better grades. I cannot say what is the impact on the brightness of the backs of “Sport Star Subjects' cards that have worn down to a lower grade.



All cards could be told apart between the two sets by comparing pictures that clearly show the details of the die cuts used in the "Sport Star Subjects" set against pictures that clearly show the details of some of the die cuts from the original Bond Bread insert set. That would identify any individual die cut flaws specific to the "Sport Star Subjects" not appearing on the die cuts used to print the Bond Bread set. To do so is more than a one person job and would require the help of others reading this thread.

Copyright 2020, by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521

[abctoo]

Here are better comparative images of the backs of cards similar to the 1947 Bond Bread package inserts. I've added a brown toned Festberg card back to show its difference from the two different set versions of the white backs to avoid any confusion.



Copyright 2020, by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521