Most overrated baseball superstar ever?

[ClementeFanOh]

I think "the 'stache" needs to switch to decaf... If ANY of you would go out of your way to watch Bryce Harper play a game, other than the "stache"- pay just to watch Harper, that is- signify by saying aye, please...
Stache- it sounds very much like I (and others who don't much care for Bryce) struck a nerve because you "like" him as a player. That's fine, you can favor anyone you like. The question at hand is "overrated" player, however, and I stand by my comments all day long. You carried on about him at length, like he is part of the Second Coming, and my response is "meh". He could well be on the ARod track, meaning the teams he leaves somehow become better for it. Is he a "good" player? Yes, but nothing more. Time will tell...
So, since the term "overrated" clearly connotes opinion on the part of the individual, I'll stick with my original picks. In the end, anyone who is how own biggest fan is likely "overrated", yes?
Does this count as a mic drop?

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

I think "the 'stache" needs to switch to decaf... If ANY of you would go out of your way to watch Bryce Harper play a game, other than the "stache"- pay just to watch Harper, that is- signify by saying aye, please...
Stache- it sounds very much like I (and others who don't much care for Bryce) struck a nerve because you "like" him as a player. That's fine, you can favor anyone you like. The question at hand is "overrated" player, however, and I stand by my comments all day long. You carried on about him at length, like he is part of the Second Coming, and my response is "meh". He could well be on the ARod track, meaning the teams he leaves somehow become better for it. Is he a "good" player? Yes, but nothing more. Time will tell...
So, since the term "overrated" clearly connotes opinion on the part of the individual, I'll stick with my original picks. In the end, anyone who is how own biggest fan is likely "overrated", yes?
Does this count as a mic drop?

FWIW, I was talking about his Mantle argument.

[ClementeFanOh]

Hi Early- ah, I see. No questions Mantle was awesome. Harper? Not so much.

[Wrightfan85]

If anything, Mantle might be underrated. If he doesn't hurt himself in ST his rookie year...he may have been the best ever,

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

I think "the 'stache" needs to switch to decaf... If ANY of you would go out of your way to watch Bryce Harper play a game, other than the "stache"- pay just to watch Harper, that is- signify by saying aye, please...
Stache- it sounds very much like I (and others who don't much care for Bryce) struck a nerve because you "like" him as a player. That's fine, you can favor anyone you like. The question at hand is "overrated" player, however, and I stand by my comments all day long. You carried on about him at length, like he is part of the Second Coming, and my response is "meh". He could well be on the ARod track, meaning the teams he leaves somehow become better for it. Is he a "good" player? Yes, but nothing more. Time will tell...
So, since the term "overrated" clearly connotes opinion on the part of the individual, I'll stick with my original picks. In the end, anyone who is how own biggest fan is likely "overrated", yes?
Does this count as a mic drop?

First of all, please stop with the condescending attitude. I don't need to switch anything. And I didn't need you to explain what overrated means. I'm not a child whose hand you need to hold.

Secondly, I didn't "carry on about him like he was part of the second coming". I took the time to provide factual evidence to disprove your absurd conclusion, where you relied on conjecture, and nothing more. Had you left at it "I feel he is overrated", fine. That is mere opinion, and one I have no issue with. But then you started tossing out reasons for your thinking so, reasons that had absolutely no basis in reality, whatsoever. And when you do so, you leave yourself open to rebuke.

First, trying to prove that his leaving the Nationals had anything at all to do with them winning the World Series, is plain silly. It is coincidence. You think the Nationals would have traded him if they could have afforded him? It's not the first time a team lets a star get away because of money, and it won't be the last.

Second, the rest of your post was complete fiction. You admitted that you didn't follow him that much, but assumed that he hit empty home runs (demonstrably false), and his teams "wallowed"; again, easily demonstrated to be inaccurate.

Furthermore, where did I say I would pay money just to watch him play? Another assumption. I don't even like Harper. I think he's an immature ass that needs to grow up. But to opine that he's not an elite talent is simply foolish. Or, do you think teams like the Phillies just give out $27 million a year to merely "good" players?

In the five years he's played since age 22, when some players are first starting to come to the Majors, he's had one historic MVP season, and another MVP caliber season cut short by injury:

In 2017, he hit .319, scored 95 runs, with 27 doubles, 29 home runs, 87 RBI, and slashed .413/.595/1.008, 250 total bases. In 111 games played. Take those numbers out to 158 games played, his average of the 159 games played in 2018 and in 17 in 2019, and this is where he ends up:

.319 AVG, 135 runs, 38 doubles, 41 home runs, 124 RBI, 356 total bases. 156 OPS+

So, he's the unanimous National League MVP in 2015. He finished 12th in the MVP in 2017, even though he missed 51 games, nearly a third of the season. Since the Nats went on to win 97 games in 2017, there's a very good chance a healthy Harper wins his second MVP in three years.

And that's merely "good"? Two MVP seasons before age 25?

His OPS+ In 2015 was 198.

Since 1919 (minimum 500 AB), there have been a grand total of 27 better individual seasons than Harper's 198 OPS+.

Here's the report on Baseball-Reference.

8 were by Babe Ruth
3 were by Lou Gehrig
3 were by Ted Williams
3 were by Rogers Hornsby
2 were by Jimmie Foxx
2 were by Mickey Mantle
1 each by Frank Robinson, Stan Musial, Barry Bonds, Dick Allen, Norm Cash, Mark McGwire, Jason Giambi and Sammy Sosa.

Not bad for a "good" player, huh?

He had a drop off in performance in 2018, but that can be attributed to his recovering from his knee injury. He hyperextended it in August of 2017, and was able to return at the end of the season. But he struggled mightily, which isn't surprising given the injury. In 5 games before the end of the season, he hit .167 (5 for 18), and in the playoffs, .211 (4 for 19).

At the 2018 All Star break (July 17), through 94 games, he was hitting .214 and slashing .365/.468/.833. He'd struck out 102 times in 327 at bats. He did have 23 home runs, though. He clearly wasn't all the way back.

After the break, he did much better.

.300 AVG, 65 games, 46 runs, 11 HR, 46 RBI, 52 walks, 67 Ks, slash line .434/.538/.972.

His post All Star break numbers, taken to a full 162 game season, are MVP caliber:

.300 AVG, 115 runs, 50 doubles, 27 home runs, 115 RBI, 130 walks.

In an "off" 2018, he still hit 34 home runs, drove in 100, and led baseball with 130 walks.

In 2019, he hit 35 home runs, walked 99 times, and drove in a career high 114 runs.

So....

In 2015 unanimous National League MVP
2016 down season
2017 MVP front runner when he hurt his knee, hitting .326 slashing .419/.614/1.034.
2018 first half way below average after returning from injury, MVP second half
2019 All Star caliber season

You can stand by your comments. But when your statement is based purely in fantasy, don't take umbrage when somebody exposes your opinion as a dumb one. Even after I've produced indisputable evidence that Harper is, indeed, and elite offensive player, your only response is "meh", and, "I'll stick by my original opinion".

It's too bad that you're the kind of person that, when presented with facts, decides to stubbornly adhere to your original comment. Even after you admitted that you "really didn't pay attention" to him. That's okay, though. I know not to put any credence in anything you say about the game again.

[packs]

Overrated means public perception is that the player is better than they really are. Nothing you pointed out about Harper screams 300 million dollars to me. He is always going to be lumped in with Trout but he isn't Trout.

I think the MVP was Stanton's in 2017 no matter what Harper did. That was a monster year.

The Phillies were 2 games below .500 without Harper and then paid him 300 million to win one extra game. That makes him overrated in my book. He had no effect on his team despite being billed as its savior.

[ClementeFanOh]

Stache- my final word on you:
First, as other commenters so astutely observed, you don't like it that I treated YOU, the way you treated others prior to my opinion on Harper. Frankly, it's fun to toy with clowns like you- you know, the kind who quote stats but couldn't play, and simply cannot believe it when someone doesn't bow to your stat prowess. (In other words, you may have been had by this "dumb" commenter, hoss…)
Finally, you will NOT change my mind on Harper- especially after referring to him as "erratic" yourself. Harper is a talented player who has been, to this point, forgettable- despite that talent, despite the notoriety, despite his ego- just a guy who provides stat geeks with caffeine fueled rage when someone doubts their paper conclusions. It's been 8 seasons and nobody cares about Bryce Harper but Harper himself- and you. Again, when you are the "stud" who leaves a team, and that team IMMEDIATELY wins the Series, the word "overrated" clearly is in play. Keep trying though- with another commenter- because "I know not to put any credence in anything you say about the game again".
Thanks nolemmings, packs, howard38, cardsagain74- you called it correctly, and better, than I did.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

I think "the 'stache" needs to switch to decaf... If ANY of you would go out of your way to watch Bryce Harper play a game, other than the "stache"- pay just to watch Harper, that is- signify by saying aye, please...
Stache- it sounds very much like I (and others who don't much care for Bryce) struck a nerve because you "like" him as a player. That's fine, you can favor anyone you like. The question at hand is "overrated" player, however, and I stand by my comments all day long. You carried on about him at length, like he is part of the Second Coming, and my response is "meh". He could well be on the ARod track, meaning the teams he leaves somehow become better for it. Is he a "good" player? Yes, but nothing more. Time will tell...
So, since the term "overrated" clearly connotes opinion on the part of the individual, I'll stick with my original picks. In the end, anyone who is how own biggest fan is likely "overrated", yes?
Does this count as a mic drop?

Uhh this is literally the opposite of a mic drop

[packs]

I don't really understand how anyone can have a different opinion on Harper. The Phillies went 80-82 in 2018. They spent 300 million dollars on one player to go 81-81 in 2019.

What makes that player properly valued?

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't really understand how anyone can have a different opinion on Harper. The Phillies went 80-82 in 2018. They spent 300 million dollars on one player to go 81-81 in 2019.

What makes that player properly valued?

OK, but where was his former team without him? Oh yeah, World Series champs.

[mcgwirecom]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't really understand how anyone can have a different opinion on Harper. The Phillies went 80-82 in 2018. They spent 300 million dollars on one player to go 81-81 in 2019.

What makes that player properly valued?

How are the Angels doing with Trout (and Pujols)?


Also someone mentioned the Nats winning the WS after losing Harper. How about the 2001 Mariners? They got rid of Griffey, Randy Johnson, Arod then went on to win more games than anyone ever.

[ClementeFanOh]

I am one of the someone who mentioned the Nats getting rid of Harper, then winning the WS immediately after. Yes, Seattle let loose of Aroid, Griffey, and Johnson- over a 3 year stretch though, not one. And, unless I am delinquent on my WS knowledge, Seattle did NOT follow up with a WS win. ( I am sure someone will correct me if wrong
In an effort to extend an olive branch, however, I'd be happy to include Griffey on the overrated list ( his career was a tale of two wildly different halves- one phenomenal and the other forgettable) and of course ARod (no explanation offered or, one would hope, needed).

[packs]

Originally Posted by mcgwirecom

How are the Angels doing with Trout (and Pujols)?


Also someone mentioned the Nats winning the WS after losing Harper. How about the 2001 Mariners? They got rid of Griffey, Randy Johnson, Arod then went on to win more games than anyone ever.

I really wish people used analogies correctly. The Angels have gotten 3 MVPs out of Trout. They didn't pay him to stay because they thought he was the difference maker in a tight window to win a title. They paid him to stay because he's maybe the greatest individual player in history and they're getting what they paid for in terms of his production.

If the Phillies signed Harper to put them over the top (which I don't think anyone can argue against), his play made him irrelevant which makes him overrated. It's that simple to me.

[Kenny Cole]

I think its probably too early to say that Trout's the greatest player ever (at least in my estimation). I do agree that he's been pretty phenomenal thus far.
And he certainly puts people in the seats and causes them to buy his stuff. So long as he's making the Angels money, I imagine the ownership will be happy.

[PowderedH2O]

Statistically, Rogers Hornsby is on the short list of the greatest players ever. During his lifetime he was rated as the greatest second baseman of all time and his stats are eye-popping. But, I wonder if we get past that, what do we have? Could you imagine a guy with these kinds of numbers getting traded so many times in such a short time? And, after the Frankie Frisch trade, he was getting traded for nobodies. Multiple teams felt that they were better off with "The Rajah" gone than to have him on the roster. I've heard other players say nice things about Ty Cobb. I've never heard anyone say anything positive about Hornsby's personality.

So, as far as overrated goes, could a guy be such a cancer in the clubhouse that he could actually be overrated despite putting up such gaudy numbers?