Will this stock market madness affect cards?

[Leon]

"Approximately 3% of people abuse unemployment and entitlements like welfare. That costs U.S. citizens $3.5 billion dollars ($5,000 per citizen)"


Whomever says that is ignorant. That isn't a personal attack. it is they just don't know the truth.

Originally Posted by CharleyBrown

Dale,

I believe you when you say when you aren't talking about all those living paycheck to paycheck.

Regarding what I quoted.

Statistics say otherwise. As a people, we are more inclined to focus on those that a) cheat the system b) flaunt.

Yeah, those that live way beyond their means made their own bed, but let's not assume the majority of those living paycheck to paycheck do so because they live lavishly and don't save.

It's like the old facebook trope regarding people that abuse social services entitlements. "I saw this woman in front of me talking on her iPhone with a Gucci bag paying with food stamps." Sure, there are those that do that and they get lots of attention, but they are in the significant minority. Let me break it down.

If you look at the hard data, the number of "common" people scheming the system cost the states and federal government in the U.S. far less than the executives and those engaging in corporate fraud... and it's not even close. Maybe it's different in Ontario, but I doubt it.

Here are some numbers:

Approximately 3% of people abuse unemployment and entitlements like welfare. That costs U.S. citizens $3.5 billion dollars ($5,000 per citizen)

On the other hand, fraud by American defense contractors amounts to $100 billion per year. Corporate fraud (such as insider trading or cooking the books) is up by more than 50% of what it was a decade ago. Nearly 90% of those cases directly involve CEOs, CFOs and in insider trading cases, politicians. This fraud costs U.S. citizens more than $10 trillion (works out to be upwards of $45,000 per citizen)

Guess which group continues to get rich at the expense of others and drives marketing campaigns designed to sell to those struggling to get by while simultaneously shaming them for poor spending habits?

Let's not vilify the average person trying to get by in a world that is designed to get people to spend, spend, spend.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Leon

Whomever says that is ignorant. That isn't a personal attack. it is they just don't know the truth.

And the truth is?

[Republicaninmass]

I had seen this article a while back. Seemed like a large number

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...fraud/2127897/

[CharleyBrown]

Sigh, I know it's not a personal attack, but I don't shoot from the hip. You've seen my research on the Bond Bread set.

https://research.stlouisfed.org/publ...nsurance-fraud

https://s3.amazonaws.com/real.stloui...2/2012-024.pdf

On the other hand... not mentioned in my original post, but along the same lines: medicare fraud costs taxpayers $60 billion/year... in fact, Senator Rick Scott was CEO of a company that committed $300 million in medicare fraud and faced a fine of $1.7 billion.

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/19/u...d-economy.html

Oops... not 3%, but rather 4% - I admit my estimate was off slightly.

This article discusses the cost of the 2008 recession to U.S. citizens:

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/22/b...g-tallied.html

Originally Posted by Leon

"Approximately 3% of people abuse unemployment and entitlements like welfare. That costs U.S. citizens $3.5 billion dollars ($5,000 per citizen)"


Whomever says that is ignorant. That isn't a personal attack. it is they just don't know the truth.

[CharleyBrown]

It should be said that fraud of any kind, be it unemployment fraud, food stamp fraud, medicare fraud, securities and commodities fraud, etc. is awful and costly. However, the average person is more likely to vilify those committing food stamp or unemployment fraud despite it costing tax payers less overall. Meanwhile, the perps that commit the more costly fraud to taxpayers... securities and commodities fraud... are often overlooked.

Perhaps this is because it's easy to spot the person with a fake Gucci bag and iPhone paying with food stamps than it is to find the multi-millionaire (or billionaire) padding an extra zero to their net worth.

[CharleyBrown]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/simonco.../#40619d1df880

A more recent article on SNAP fraud... of note:

"When compared with those total figures, the fraud identified in 2016 amounted to a mere 0.9% of the total. That was up from 0.5% in 2012.

Or put another way, 99% of the benefit dollars were in no way associated with fraud, assuming that the government is doing its job of identifying malfeasance. If the fraud figure continues to grow at the same rate, then there is a real problem, but so far not so much."

[Dpeck100]

Explosive finish on this 1989 Rotten to the Core set.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rotten-to-t...rdt=true&rt=nc


Very nice to see the Trump card going strong!

I gave my twin brother a PSA 10 for Christmas and kept two. I knew this card was going to be a monster!

[gawaintheknight]

+1, and a bonus to you for citing Forbes which no one can call left wing.

Ted

Originally Posted by CharleyBrown

https://www.forbes.com/sites/simonco.../#40619d1df880

A more recent article on SNAP fraud... of note:

"When compared with those total figures, the fraud identified in 2016 amounted to a mere 0.9% of the total. That was up from 0.5% in 2012.

Or put another way, 99% of the benefit dollars were in no way associated with fraud, assuming that the government is doing its job of identifying malfeasance. If the fraud figure continues to grow at the same rate, then there is a real problem, but so far not so much."

[samosa4u]

This is probably the worst case of "thread hijacking" I have ever seen. The OP asked the following question:

Will this stock market madness affect cards?

And look where it is now. Sigh*

[Dpeck100]

Seems like every time I check completed listings I am pleasantly surprised. This just sold for $500.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dusty-Rhode...AOSwM0hdwNbdbd

[AustinMike]

Originally Posted by Leon

"Approximately 3% of people abuse unemployment and entitlements like welfare. That costs U.S. citizens $3.5 billion dollars ($5,000 per citizen)"


Whomever says that is ignorant. That isn't a personal attack. it is they just don't know the truth.

I'm not sure if they are ignorant, but they are either math challenged or don't proofread what they type or something is not explained in the analysis.

There are currently around 340 million people living in this country. Let's be conservative and use the 2010 census figure of less than 309 million. Let's say 308 million people. Let's be further conservative and assume that 10% of the population are not citizens. That leaves 277 million citizens. $3.5 billion divided by 277 million is less than $13 per citizen. How did they come up with $5,000 per citizen? Or am I missing something?

[CharleyBrown]

Mike,

You're correct in that I failed to incorporate the rest of my data in my analysis and I was assuming that the figures provided were on the low / conservative end. That was my error - not ashamed to admit it. The data that I failed to include was medicare and medicaid fraud (approximately $100 billion/year, along with fraud in the private sector insurance industry ($100-300 billion/yearly). I also should have stated U.S. citizen over 18 or even taxpayer.

Once you factor that information in, it's about $2,000/U.S. citizen over 18. So even if one were to say that the number of people defrauding services is over 3%, the impact on taxpayers is still far less than the criminal actions of corporate executives that led to the 2008 recession.

Originally Posted by AustinMike

I'm not sure if they are ignorant, but they are either math challenged or don't proofread what they type or something is not explained in the analysis.

There are currently around 340 million people living in this country. Let's be conservative and use the 2010 census figure of less than 309 million. Let's say 308 million people. Let's be further conservative and assume that 10% of the population are not citizens. That leaves 277 million citizens. $3.5 billion divided by 277 million is less than $13 per citizen. How did they come up with $5,000 per citizen? Or am I missing something?

[AustinMike]

Originally Posted by CharleyBrown

Once you factor that information in, it's about $2,000/U.S. citizen over 18. So even if one were to say that the number of people defrauding services is over 3%, the impact on taxpayers is still far less than the criminal actions of corporate executives that led to the 2008 recession.

Shaun,

Thanks for the update. I thought I was going crazy.

Unfortunately, the fact as you've laid it out doesn't fit the preconceived narrative of some people so it will simply be dismissed as "fake news."