Will this stock market madness affect cards?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

One of the best wrestlers of the last 20 years.

His father is Bob Orton Jr. and his father is Bob Orton Sr. A great wrestling family.

He is in the 2002 WWE Fleer Royal Rumble with other notable cards of John Cena, Brock Lesnar, and Dave Bautista. They are black bordered and hard to get high grades on.

Since wrestling is fixed, how do you define "best wrestlers of the last 20 years?"

When I was a kid in Minnesota, Verne Gagne was considered the top wrestler. Every match ran the same script - he started off hot, then it looked like he would lose, but suddenly he came back to life and won.

Then there was Mad Dog Vachon, Larry Hennig, The Crusher, and others, who could never beat Verne, but who would win sometimes if wrestling against each other.

And then, the sad story of Kenny Jay, who was the Terry Felton of wrestling. Rumor had it that he actually won once, but I have my doubts.

Point is, when it's scripted and the winners are decided beforehand (as was confirmed for me by a former pro wrestler, Wolf Terminator) how do you define greatness? Maybe if they'd been honest matches, Kenny Jay may have beaten Verne a few times.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Since wrestling is fixed, how do you define "best wrestlers of the last 20 years?"

When I was a kid in Minnesota, Verne Gagne was considered the top wrestler. Every match ran the same script - he started off hot, then it looked like he would lose, but suddenly he came back to life and won.

Then there was Mad Dog Vachon, Larry Hennig, The Crusher, and others, who could never beat Verne, but who would win sometimes if wrestling against each other.

And then, the sad story of Kenny Jay, who was the Terry Felton of wrestling. Rumor had it that he actually won once, but I have my doubts.

Point is, when it's scripted and the winners are decided beforehand (as was confirmed for me by a former pro wrestler, Wolf Terminator) how do you define greatness? Maybe if they'd been honest matches, Kenny Jay may have beaten Verne a few times.

This is an interesting question. Vern Gagne ran a wrestling training school during the time you mention and three long term top talents came out of there that I will use to answer this question. All three of these men trained at the same time and have much different talents that they used to build their careers. My wife has taken an interest in the balet and in many ways you can compare professional wrestling to it. You need athleticism, stamina, looks, acting skills, and charisma.

Ric Flair was a big guy when he entered Gagne's training program and because of the rigorous training schedule slimmed down to a more athletic build of around 240. He was still a very big guy but certainly not the size of many of the giant's of wrestling. Flair went on to have a lengthy career and arguably one of the best. Why? He was tremendous in the ring. One of his best skills was selling the other performers offense and making the fans believe he was going to lose only to come back and some how pull off the victory. He had tremendous charisma and was one of the best talkers ever on the microphone. His promos are legendary and are still recited to this day. He won the world title 16 times and yes he was chosen to win but he was chosen to win because he was reliable and he was a draw and his work rate was second to none. He could wrestle a legit six minutes in the ring and for anyone who does cardio it is mind boggling how tremendous of shape you have to be in to do that.

Next we have the Iron Sheik. He was a legit wrestler from Iran who competed at top levels and was known as a shooter. A shooter is a legit wrestler/fighter who if they decide they do not want to go with the story line they can have their way with the other wrestler. For most of his career he was a bad guy and his role was to incite the fans and in many cases make the good guys look better and sell tickets. By being billed from his home land of Iran he generated heat and was very believable in the ring. As legend has it Vern Gagne offered him 100k in 1984 when he faced Hulk Hogan in Vince Mcmahon's WWF for their heavyweight title to break Hogan's leg and not go along with the predetermined finish that would see Hogan take the title. Not all wrestlers are trained like this and in a real life street fight while Hogan is dramatically larger he would be no match at the time for the likes of the Iron Sheik.

Finally we have Ken Patera. A legit strong man and Olympic competitor who for a time was the worlds strongest man. He had a look that you just simply can't recreate. I have had the good fortune to get to work with him a few times in recent years at some wrestling conventions and he has the largest forearms even in his 70's I have ever seen on a human. In many ways wrestling was like the circus. They had something for everyone. Ken was a sight to be seen and was so strong that even though wrestling was thought to be scripted it was believable that he could over power anyone he wanted. In the late 70's he took on a more slimmed down body builder look and was easily one of the best bad guys in wrestling. He was never the best in ring performer but he was excellent at getting the crowd riled up and with his look and over all athleticism he helped create the appearance of a more legitimate contest.

Wrestling was thought to be a fixed sport but it wasn't confirmed until Vince McMahon decided to no longer employ the state athletic commission and declare it was indeed a predetermined sport. Randy Orton has wrestled during this time and he has had a tremendous career. Yes the WWE has to put him in the spots he is in but the only way to get those spots and to maintain those spots is to stay healthy and put on a great performance. He is in tremendous condition, has a great look, is excellent on the microphone, can wrestle as a face or heal and is naturally a better heal, and is a great in ring performer. For anyone who has watched wrestling for a long time there are some performers that can make the moves look tight and as real as possible and there are others where it is painfully obvious they are not hurting their foe. For this he is easily one of the best talents in the past twenty years and will be thought of longer term as one of the best from his era.

[Goudey77]

My son and I attend at least 4 WWE events a year. I grew up watching it. My kid watches it. The athleticism rivals any other "professional" sport.

What makes a wrestling talent great is usually how they connect with the audience on the microphone. Then telling the in ring story via their performance on the mat.

It's similar to what makes a movie start great. Same qualities.

Look at the "Rock" Dwayne Johnson. He is a wrestling "great".