T201 Mecca - Master Set/New Discovery/New Theory

GeoPoto · #1 03-20-2020, 01:23 PM

It's not WaJo

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

nolemmings · #2 03-20-2020, 01:45 PM

Here's one I used to own--that's Crawford and Cobb joining Turner and Stovall

Marslife · #3 03-20-2020, 03:03 PM

WOW!!!

NICE FIND ROB!

According to my tabulations, your Lord/Dougherty Factory 30 is the third known copy!

I found one years ago (original post) at the National. My T201 buddy and T201 Guru & board member Mike Wheat just stole one off Ebay last month!

lord F30.jpg
lord front.jpg

Your copy makes number THREE that has come to light!

I suspect that there was at least one sheet of Factory 30's made so if a sheet was a minimum of 9 cards there should be 6 more floating around. Based upon some of the miscuts that Mike and I have been collecting it seems that some of the popular players had at least one line across of copies on a sheet, with some of the lesser players having only one or two copies per sheet?

this theory may be out the window with the new post of the Cobb with turner/stovall :-(

Regardless... great set, keep the miscuts coming Mike and I are trying to archive them with hopes to do something with them someday :-)

Still working on the T201 Master Set, still missing the Kling/Cole Factory 30 with only one copy known that Mr. Wheat has, although recent update a generoud board member may be able to hook me up with my very own copy

Will post an update accordingly...

NICE FIND ROB!

brianp-beme · #4 03-20-2020, 03:33 PM

T201 cards are a must have if you like odd angular cuts.

Brian

T206Collector · #5 03-20-2020, 09:27 PM

T201s are great signed. I love mine.

Here�s one signed by Leifield and stamped by Burdick:

Here�s Doyle/Meyers signed by both:

All of my signed T201s lined up in a beautiful row...

RCMcKenzie · #6 03-21-2020, 11:19 AM

Thanks, Cliff, I thought you would like the Dougherty factory 30. GL on the Kling...

Paul, nice run of cards. Do you know if the Burdick card was already signed when he got it? Did Burdick buy the card already signed or did he get it signed?

Here's M. Brown...

T206Collector · #7 03-21-2020, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Paul, nice run of cards. Do you know if the Burdick card was already signed when he got it? Did Burdick buy the card already signed or did he get it signed

Thanks! I have a theory that he traded the T201 to John D. Wagner, who got it signed. I have evidence that Wagner was one of the pioneer TTM signed card collectors. Here�s his correspondence with Fred Snodgrass, by which he secured a signed T206 card...

Zach Wheat · #8 03-24-2020, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marslife

T201 Mecca Double Folders – Master Set Complete? New Discovery, New Theory?

Hey All!

I am one of the fortunate folks that got my start to my tobacco card collection by winning the tobacco card lottery. My Grandpap was 12 years old in 1909; he was one of those “Newsies” hawking newspapers on the streets of NYC, while he was smoking Mecca cigarettes. I am sure he also harassed gentlemen coming out of the tobacco store begging for the double folders from their fresh packs. When he passed I inherited his shoebox of prized possessions from his rough childhood, amazed that they survived all those years!

He was obviously a Mecca man as most of the cards I inherited were the awesome double folders. Initially I had 65 or so double folders. I started swapping/trading or selling dupes to eventually make a full set. I then began upgrading, completed a few more sets to sell at auction, and fell under the “Master Set” spell. I began pursuing Factory sets about 2 years ago. My purchase of a Rucker/Daubert Factory 30 back last night, I believe (see below) completes my master set run (49/50 Factory 30 & 50/50 Factory 649).

By compiling several sets, research and reading about the double folders, the general hobby consensus is that the Lord/Dougherty is the only “short print” in the set as it could only be found with a Factory 649 back. I observed that the Lord/Dougherty is actually quite prevalent and easy to find for sale, albeit with a bit of a premium price.

My personal observations, as well as observations and postings from several other members are that the Kling/Cole is one of the harder cards to find. So here is my breaking news on the set.

I FOUND A Factory 30 Lord/Dougherty!! Located and purchased at the national this year. Photo is attached. I don’t know if this is one of a kind, or if there are many others out there and collectors just have not been cognizant of the Factory designations?? Admittedly I have been checking for another with a Factory 30 back since the National and haven’t located another.

Here is my NEW THEORY: I believe that the Kling/Cole is actually the short print of the set as I have been searching for a Kling/Cole Factory 30 back for 2 years and have not found one. I would ask that members of the Board search their Kling/Cole backs and either support or refute my theory. I would like to know either way. If none are found with a Factory 30 then my theory is likely correct. If there are Factory 30 Kling/Cole’s out there then my Master Set quest will continue!

I would appreciate any comments &/or assistance in searching for the Kling/Cole F30 back. If you find one of course would be interested in purchasing or swapping as I have many T201 dupes.

Thanks for your time and assistance!!

Also I would like to thank fellow Board members for assisting with swaps & sales of T201’s to help me along the way. Also special shout to Zach Wheat for sharing his knowledge and for the awesome T201 article in the Old Cardboard magazine. Also special acknowledgement to Keith Temple for his continued support of my upgrade quests.

Thanks again!

Cliff

Attachment 167939

Attachment 167940

Congrats Cliff on the complete Master Set!! The first Master Set ever completed as far as I know. For those that don't know, Cliff and I have been discussing, texting, emailing about different items we have discovered about the set, since the 1st article in Old Cardboard (Spring, 2014).

After looking at the set for so long, the set appears to have many quirks that frankly might never be explained. I have some guesses to the questions posed above. A few random thoughts follow.

Factory 30 backs definitely are more scarce than F649. There seem to be 4 or 5 players that are more scarce than others. Following are some thoughts on why this may have occurred.

During the presumed time period for issuance of this set, the House of Mecca was in the process of relocating outside NY. ATC's own biographical depiction detailed in "Sold American! The First 50 Years" covering the periods from 1904 to 1954, seems to suggest they were struggling to brand & re-brand each type of cigarette after the breakup of the ATC and just prior to the issuance of this set. In fact, letters published from the elder Duke to his son, now stored at one of the NC libraries indicates the elder Duke imploring his son to have more wholesome images inserted into tobacco card packs.

The set appears to be distributed over several years and many of the teams/players have a NY association.
The F30 & F649 stamps seem to have been added "after" the cards were printed. If you look closely at the factory designation at the bottom reverse of each card, you will find that be base back design is consistent from card to card, but the alignment of the factory designation is not. This suggests that the Factory designation was not printed at the same time as the reverse.

The set has a peculiar population density based upon the # of cards for each player. Cobb for example, appears to be at least quadruple printed. Since the T201 was notoriously mis-cut side-to-side and you can tell by the different edge combinations of which player was adjacent to another player on a sheet. The same can be said for many HOF’ers in the set. Likewise, I have only found 1 edge combination for other players.

Apologies for the long winded post, but these and other factors appear to have affected the population of F30 cards we see today.

Congrats again to Cliff. You have put in a lot of hard work!

Z

rsst206 · #9 03-24-2020, 07:26 PM

After looking over my set my Cole/kling is 649 along with Lord Daugherty.
I picked up these 2 beauties 20 years ago but getting the rest in this condition was difficult. Both 649's

Zach Wheat · #10 08-27-2020, 03:14 PM

Nice job Cliff on the pick up. You have eagle eyes....constantly scouting for the rare F30's. And it seems to me that the factory #'s were added to the cards AFTER the cards were printed. I have always believed a full set of F30's was out there.

T206 - Love your signed T201's. I may have to start collecting signed ones!

drmondobueno · #11 08-27-2020, 05:17 PM

Attachment 415775

Thought maybe someone might like seeing these again. I always do...

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