T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[RCMcKenzie]

Here's an sc460 42 from an unfinished Dougherty back run...

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Here's an sc460 42 from an unfinished Dougherty back run...

Hi Rob

Dougherty (arm in air) has been a tough dude in completing my sub-sets. It's been only recently that his 1st red HINDU card was discovered. And, a 2nd one has yet to be found.

Furthermore, it was just this past year that the 1st red HINDU card of Harry McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago) was discovered. So, I'm confident that Ames, Matty, and Reulbach will
eventually be discovered with red HINDU backs.

Very interesting games "The Monster" plays with us regarding these "Red Ink Twins".

Anyhow, continue posting these T206's.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

My first pair of T206 red ink "Twins"....which I acquired many years ago.


.



TED Z
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[steve B]

Wouldn't it be fun if they were literally printed on the same sheet?

Like several rows of SC and one of Hindu?

[RCMcKenzie]

The only player I have with both backs is Crandall, posted above. I would like to have the Dougherty with Red Hindu. Maybe another one will show up one day. Here are a few more Doughertys...(scan from 2013, been awhile since I've added any new ones)

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE...Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


....Sweet Caporal ...... Sovereign ......... Piedmont_____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards_____ Sovereign…. American Beauty .…. UZIT


[/B]This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman
so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)].

Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?
This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363
meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, this thread was...."the beginning of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca).

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11


Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the
theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints.

So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here.

And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have.

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INDEX

Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters.

Set your user settings to display 50 posts per Page. Then click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted.


Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints"

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's !

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs"

Post #96.....UZIT checklist

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist

Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ?

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's

Posts #231 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Posts #263 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects......

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist

Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005

Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey

Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure

Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards

Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns of the T206's and T205's

Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set

Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set

Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set

Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set

Posts #481 >> 515.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"

Posts #516 >> 536....."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards

Posts #537 >> 551.....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ?

Posts #553 >> 554.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #561 >> 570.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #571 >> 572.....FYI: 350 Series Minor Leaguer's checklist and trivia

Posts #573 >> 573.....T206 Southern League cards illustrated

Posts #574 >> 579.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one !

Posts #580 >> 597.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?

Posts #598 >> 600.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #601 >> 603.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #605 >> 621.....the TOLSTOI story

Posts #622 >> 623.....Meet me at Philly, we can Talk T206's

Posts #624 >> 635.....CYCLE 460 checklist

Posts #636 >> 650.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #651 >> 664.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #665 >> 669.....UPGRADING T206 cards

Posts #671 >> 674.....And then, there are times to down-grade your T206's

Posts #675 >> 692.....Black LENOX checklist

Posts #693 >> 697.....Check-out Jamie B's multi-brand T206 card

Posts #698 >> 700.....Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back

Posts #701 >> 713.....Reprising the Ty Cobb / TY COBB card debate

Posts #714 >> 726.....CYCLE 350 checklist..... where have all the CYCLE 350 cards gone ?

Posts #727 >> 741.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat)..... Post your inputs and/or cards

Posts #742 >> 750.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them

Posts #751 >> 760.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them

Posts #761 >> 800.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Posts #801 >> 821.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Posts #824 >> 832.....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards

Posts #833 >> 850.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here

Posts #851 >> 853.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here

Posts #854 >> 883.....What backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ?

Posts #884 >> 900.....Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS

Posts #901 >> 916.....Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS

Posts #917 >> 944.....MISSION (99%) ACCOMPLISHED American Beauty 460 run. Show your favorite run

Posts #945 >> 950.....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

Posts #951 >> 961.....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

Posts #962 >> 984.....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)

Posts #985 >> 1000....... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

Posts #1001 >> 1002..... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

Posts #1004 >> 1034.....Reminiscing about your 1st BB card Show where you acquired T206's

Posts #1035 >> 1040.....Show T206's with same name on top or different player's name on top


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

.


Here we have two NY Highlanders. A rookie, Russ Ford, who compiled an unprecedented pitching record of 48 wins in his first two seasons (1910 and 1911).
And, the enigmatic Hal Chase......who (imo) should be in the HOF.


Russ Ford is a member of the 12 guys in the Exclusive 12 club. My Red Ink Twins with this group of T206's is complete.

460-only Series

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The guys in the 350/460 Series group (35 subjects) are considerably tougher to find with the Red Ink Twins cards.
This project is a long-term work in progress. I have a few from this Series. This Hal Chase "twin" pair is my favorite.

.

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TED Z
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[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE.......Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *





My 2nd experience, which was a factor in forming my Wagner card source theory, occurred in May 1985. An old friend and Show promoter, Bob Bartosz, called me
from his BB card shop in Cherry Hill, NJ. He was very excited as he said.... "Ted, you have to see what just came into my shop, it's really awesome". I told Bob I'd
be there within an hour. An elderly gentleman with 8 original metal printing plates was at Bob's shop. Bob and I were astonished as we realized the significance of
these plates. Each plate (approx. 22" x 17") had 32 images on it. The total number of images on 7 of the 8 plates comprised of the 224-card 1954 BOWMAN set.
The duplicate plate had images of cards #65 - 96. YES, believe it or not, there were 2 plates with the #66 Ted Williams image on them. I emphasize this since you
old-timers may recall that back in the 1970's - 1980's that the explanation for the Ted Williams card being scarce was...… "the printing plate was broken".
Well, that "myth" was certainly dispelled that day in May.
The gentleman was a former BOWMAN employee, who was not in any hurry to part with these 8 plates. Stay tuned for the rest of this story. It has a happy ending.

Plus, there is a 3rd experience which I will post so you can see where I'm coming from regarding my theory.

Meanwhile, you guys who are fortunate to own (or have owned) the T206 Wagner card please share with us your inputs on this subject.





TED Z
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[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *

.


In 2007, I posted a thread on this "printer's mark" on the T206 Joe Doyle N.Y. card. I like to refer to this version of the Joe Doyle card as the "poor-man's"
substitute for the Joe Doyle Nat'L card


Regarding the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L card, to date there are 9 (or 10) confirmed. The first one was actually in Senator Richard Russell's T-card collection
from his youth. However, it was unknown until his collection was placed on display at the Univ. of Georgia. The 2nd one was discovered by Larry Fritsch in
the early 1980's. The 3rd one was discovered by Bill Huggins in the mid-1980's. The rest is history.

In the scans here, seen in the middle Joe Doyle card is a printer's mark just to the right of the dot following the "Y". However minor this mark may appear,
it exactly lines up with the start of the "N" in the very scarce "Nat'L" variation. And it very slightly drops below the line of the Doyle, N.Y. lettering, as does
the leading serif of the letter "N" in the word "Nat'L" in the actual variation.

Since 2007, I've run a Survey measuring the availability of Joe Doyle cards with this printer's mark. The results (shown below) indicate that on the average
of 1 out of 16 cards have this mark.

So guys, how about a Show-n-Tell of your T206 Joe Doyle cards. Let's continue this Survey by posting a few more "printer's mark" Joe Doyle cards.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -^ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Printer's Mark - - - -^ (remnant of "N" in Nat'L)



Here's the results of my 12-year survey on this Joe Doyle "printer's mark". Last UPDATE in late 2019 (351 unique samples)


T-brand.............Mark.....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........10..........136

Sweet Cap 350.......7...........134

Polar Bear..............4............29

Old Mill..................1.............7

Sovereign 350.........0...........15

Tolstoi....................0.............6

EPDG.....................0.............2
____________________________

Totals.................. 22 ........ 329


22 - Joe Doyle cards with this printer's mark = 22/351 = 6.3 %


Thanks for your interest, and let's hear your responses.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *

.


Since last week, 6 more Joe Doyle inputs. But still no additional "printer's marks". Sean posted his "printer's mark" Doyle a week ago, and Sean's card is the only one of the
17 new inputs (so far). My 13-year Survey suggests that on an average, 1 out of 16 cards are found with this "printer's mark". Perhaps, the more samples we get, the more
rare these Joe Doyle cards with this "mark" become. Hey guys, how about playing in this game by posting your Joe Doyle's here to continue this survey.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -^ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Printer's Mark - - - -^ (remnant of "N" in Nat'L)


UPDATED May 17, 2020 (368 unique samples)


T-brand.............Mark.....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........11..........144

Sweet Cap 350.......7...........138

Polar Bear..............4............31

Old Mill..................1.............7

Sovereign 350.........0...........17

Tolstoi....................0.............6

EPDG.....................0.............2
____________________________
x
Totals.................. 23 ........ 345


23 - Joe Doyle cards with this printer's mark...... 23/368 = 6.2 %


TED Z
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