Let's welcome Charlie Barokas to the Billion Dollar Fraud!

[swarmee]

My personal guess is that between 10-20% of PSA graded cards are altered without detection. Looks like David Thorn and Evan Mathis were able to trim uncut sheets and get them slabbed by PSA as originally cut in the 1960s/70s. Again, some of these card doctors have been slabbing a 1000+ cards a year for 10 years each. 10x10x1,000 = 100,000 cards just from these guys. And we're not even talking about all the bleaching, erasures, pressing, etc that isn't as detectable from images without before and after pictures.

Again, it's not like all these card alterers were only submitting five cards at a time. Often, the submissions are 100 cards long with only 3 being outed as trimmed. If you want to believe that the other 97% are clean until given visible evidence, you can. I don't live in Fantasyland.

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by swarmee

My personal guess is that between 10-20% of PSA graded cards are altered without detection. Looks like David Thorn and Evan Mathis were able to trim uncut sheets and get them slabbed by PSA as originally cut in the 1960s/70s. Again, some of these card doctors have been slabbing a 1000+ cards a year for 10 years each. 10x10x1,000 = 100,000 cards just from these guys. And we're not even talking about all the bleaching, erasures, pressing, etc that isn't as detectable from images without before and after pictures.

Again, it's not like all these card alterers were only submitting five cards at a time. Often, the submissions are 100 cards long with only 3 being outed as trimmed. If you want to believe that the other 97% are clean until given visible evidence, you can. I don't live in Fantasyland.

PSA claims to have slabbed 30 million cards. If 5% of these are altered, that is 1.5 million altered cards. That would be $667 per card to equal one billion dollars. And that is not counting problem cards and auto's from SGC, Beckett, GAI, etc. This could easily go over the 1 Billion mark.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by buymycards

PSA claims to have slabbed 30 million cards. If 5% of these are altered, that is 1.5 million altered cards. That would be $667 per card to equal one billion dollars. And that is not counting problem cards and auto's from SGC, Beckett, GAI, etc. This could easily go over the 1 Billion mark.

It so sad but it doesn’t matter one bit. Everything is priced in no prosecution or law enforcement action is going to stop this ........the only way it stops is when the buyers dry up.....period the market will either fix/correct itself or this is just the way it’s going to be.....PSA Auction Houses and Major Registry guys want it this way they don’t want their gravy train to end.

So disgraceful but this is the bottom line facts ......I can’t stomach it anymore that’s why I’ve chosen to sell almost all...I feel better waiting on the sidelines to see what happens

[japhi]

Personally I think the 1B number is ridiculous. PSA is only a 75mm company, and more then half of that from coins. Cards, I think 30mm or so. I suspect BGS is much smaller.

It is however hard to swag this thing, but what we know is BO has found 5-10MM in value lift between all sports. And they only have access to a minuscule amount of data - only a fraction of only sales can be worked and most raw, card show, private, set, lot, etc cards are untraceable.

So this thing is clearly wide ranging and the number is big. But the guys hyperventilating about 1b need to chill out a bit or show how the math works on that number.

[Flintboy]

At the end of the day it shouldn’t matter if it’s $100 or 1 billion dollars in fraud. It’s criminally, morally, and ethically wrong.

[drcy]

One trillion

[Tabe]

Start with the Gretzky Wagner card - that card has been sold and re-sold multiple times for millions of dollars. That's a pretty good head start towards a billion.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by japhi

Personally I think the 1B number is ridiculous. PSA is only a 75mm company, and more then half of that from coins. Cards, I think 30mm or so. I suspect BGS is much smaller.

It is however hard to swag this thing, but what we know is BO has found 5-10MM in value lift between all sports. And they only have access to a minuscule amount of data - only a fraction of only sales can be worked and most raw, card show, private, set, lot, etc cards are untraceable.

So this thing is clearly wide ranging and the number is big. But the guys hyperventilating about 1b need to chill out a bit or show how the math works on that number.

????

First, they've graded or authenticated over 30 million pieces. If it's an average price of $20 per that's $600 million.

Second, what on earth does that have to do with the dollar value of the scandal? If they grade a card that should be worth $500,000 and give it a grade that results in it being worth $10 million, do you think the fraud is just the cost of grading???!!!

[japhi]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

????

First, they've graded or authenticated over 30 million pieces. If it's an average price of $20 per that's $600 million.

Second, what on earth does that have to do with the dollar value of the scandal? If they grade a card that should be worth $500,000 and give it a grade that results in it being worth $10 million, do you think the fraud is just the cost of grading???!!!

Relax, it was just one data point. 30mm per annum is their aprox gross rev from card grading. PWCC is maybe a 5mm company. The hobby is not as big as some of you believe.

But, if you have the math on 1b in fraud lets see it. That number is being thrown around as fact. I think folks are over estimating the size

And in case anyone is confused I think this thing is big, real big. I won’t be submitting or collecting graded cards, it’s very clearly a racket that skews towards large submitters and dirt bags. I just don’t think it’s helpful to throw around numbers like 1b or hyper ventilate like Chuck does every day here.

[luciobar1980]

I just look at all this as more reason to stick to nicely presenting mid-grade cards.

[MULLINS5]

PSA is a fraud who has "graded" over a billion dollars of cards.

Therefore, it's a billion dollar fraud.

[boysblue]

The fellas over on Blow Out should be commended for uncovering this stuff. I cannot imagine the time and diligence required, so congrats to them.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

PSA is a fraud who has "graded" over a billion dollars of cards.

Therefore, it's a billion dollar fraud.

Lol, ticker JUST shy of 79 million!


Stil a ways to go

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Lol, ticker JUST shy of 79 million!


Stil a ways to go

That's number of slabs, not $ value.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Bicem

That's number of slabs, not $ value.

At a value of $12.50 each OMG it's a billion

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