Hof

[sreader3]

I suppose Larry Walker got to Cooperstown because of advanced stats. He had a high career WAR (72.7) due in part to a very high career on-base percentage (.400). Mattingly, McGriff and Murphy pale in terms of career WAR and OBP.

Not saying advanced stats should control. It's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Stats. Maybe Mattingly, Murphy, Gil Hodges and Steve Garvey should be in instead.

The focus on advanced stats may help Bill Dahlen become the next prewar Hall of Famer. Look for demand for his tough T206 subjects to spike if that happens.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by sreader3

I suppose Larry Walker got to Cooperstown because of advanced stats. He had a high career WAR (72.7) due in part to a very high career on-base percentage (.400). Mattingly, McGriff and Murphy pale in terms of career WAR and OBP.

Not saying advanced stats should control. It's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Stats. Maybe Mattingly, Murphy, Gil Hodges and Steve Garvey should be in instead.

The focus on advanced stats may help Bill Dahlen become the next prewar Hall of Famer. Look for demand for his tough T206 subjects to spike if that happens.

Dahlen should have been elected years ago, irrespective of whether or not you agree with advanced stats. He was a no-brainer 60+ years ago. Somehow he got lost in the HOF vote. That needs to be fixed, even if it is way after the fact.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Dahlen should have been elected years ago, irrespective of whether or not you agree with advanced stats. He was a no-brainer 60+ years ago. Somehow he got lost in the HOF vote. That needs to be fixed, even if it is way after the fact.

Why? .272 BA 2461 hits. Led league in RBI once with 80. Never led in any other offensive stat.

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by rats60

Why? .272 BA 2461 hits. Led league in RBI once with 80. Never led in any other offensive stat.

28.5 career defensive WAR as a shortstop. (I have no idea how they calculate dWAR in the pre-video era).

[RCMcKenzie]

Whatever you guys think about the WAR stat for position players, go to baseball-reference and check out the top 100 WAR list for position players. For the most part, it's a "who's who" of the greatest players ever. Dahlen is ranked 46th.

The names that don't belong in the top 100 greatest of all time, but appear on the top 100 WAR list to me, are Chipper Jones #32, Bobby Grich #61, Buddy Bell #91, and Chase Utley #96. I still have no problem with those guys as HOF'ers. I like how the NBA does it. Let 'em all in...Maris, Mattingly, Colovito, Murphy, Parker, etc...

I hope Dahlen makes it. I will be stocking up on his cards, not to sell, just for fun...Rob

[riggs336]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Whatever you guys think about the WAR stat for position players, go to baseball-reference and check out the top 100 WAR list for position players. For the most part, it's a "who's who" of the greatest players ever. Dahlen is ranked 46th.

The names that don't belong in the top 100 greatest of all time, but appear on the top 100 WAR list to me, are Chipper Jones #32, Bobby Grich #61, Buddy Bell #91, and Chase Utley #96. I still have no problem with those guys as HOF'ers. I like how the NBA does it. Let 'em all in...Maris, Mattingly, Colovito, Murphy, Parker, etc...

I hope Dahlen makes it. I will be stocking up on his cards, not to sell, just for fun...Rob

And if you narrow the career WAR list to just shortstops, Dahlen is seventh all time. There are five HOFers and Arod ahead of him and eighteen HOF shortstops with lesser WAR stats.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by sreader3

28.5 career defensive WAR as a shortstop. (I have no idea how they calculate dWAR in the pre-video era).

How would voters 60 years ago know that? How reliable are those numbers? I get that he had a lot of assists and putouts, but how much of that is a product of his pitchers low strike out totals vs. actually creating outs with defense? Defensive metrics are pretty unreliable from the prewar era because of incomplete data. If he was truly as good defensively as his dWAR, then why did he only get votes in 2 Hof elections and only 1 vote each time? I get that he is more deserving than Tommy McCarthy and others, but his numbers, other than WAR, don't scream Hofer.

[GeoPoto]

Originally Posted by rats60

but his numbers, other than WAR, don't scream Hofer.

He had less than 2,500 hits and a career BA of .272.
but
He had over 3,500 hits plus walks and a career OBP of .358.
He scored 1,590 runs (just ahead of George Brett and Jim Thome) and had 660 extra-base hits, when home runs were long triples.
His first eight years (with CHC in NL) his team played 1,115 games, an average of less than 140 games/yr. (He played in 987.)
I think he makes it on offense. The fact that he held down SS in that era says as much about his defensive value as, an admittedly, vague dWAR.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

He had less than 2,500 hits and a career BA of .272.
but
He had over 3,500 hits plus walks and a career OBP of .358.
He scored 1,590 runs (just ahead of George Brett and Jim Thome) and had 660 extra-base hits, when home runs were long triples.
His first eight years (with CHC in NL) his team played 1,115 games, an average of less than 140 games/yr. (He played in 987.)
I think he makes it on offense. The fact that he held down SS in that era says as much about his defensive value as, an admittedly, vague dWAR.

I'm sorry but .272 .358 .382 .740 OPS+110 isn't a Hofer.
However .318 .406 .453 .859 OPS+136 is.
Yet because of dWAR the 1st is supposed to be worth 75.4 and the 2nd only 72.9. You have to ask yourself what is going on? I don't buy that Tinker was the 4th best defensive shortstop, Wallace 8th and Dahlen 9th. I think they are seriously over valued due to WAR because of a lack of data.

Omar Vizquel had 3905 hits plus walks, he doesn't scream Hofer either. He didn't score as many runs, but that is dependent on having teammates to drive you in. Counting stats only go so far.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by sreader3

I suppose Larry Walker got to Cooperstown because of advanced stats. He had a high career WAR (72.7) due in part to a very high career on-base percentage (.400). Mattingly, McGriff and Murphy pale in terms of career WAR and OBP.

Not saying advanced stats should control. It's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Stats. Maybe Mattingly, Murphy, Gil Hodges and Steve Garvey should be in instead.

The focus on advanced stats may help Bill Dahlen become the next prewar Hall of Famer. Look for demand for his tough T206 subjects to spike if that happens.

Scot, I used to agree with you about Dahlen, but I now think that ship has sailed....Having said that, even if somehow he got in, how in the World could his Brooklyn card go any higher? It is already miles and miles ahead of most HOFers.....

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Scot, I used to agree with you about Dahlen, but I now think that ship has sailed....Having said that, even if somehow he got in, how in the World could his Brooklyn card go any higher? It is already miles and miles ahead of most HOFers.....

Kevin, I think that a Hall of Fame nod could give Dahlen Boston a significant price bump; I agree maybe less so for Brooklyn. The subjects are of similar difficulty but Brooklyn has historically commanded a higher price. Hence more upside for the Boston variation, which could achieve an Evers Blue Sky or Tinker Portrait-like premium if Dahlen is inducted. Scot