Hof

[rats60]

Originally Posted by sreader3

28.5 career defensive WAR as a shortstop. (I have no idea how they calculate dWAR in the pre-video era).

How would voters 60 years ago know that? How reliable are those numbers? I get that he had a lot of assists and putouts, but how much of that is a product of his pitchers low strike out totals vs. actually creating outs with defense? Defensive metrics are pretty unreliable from the prewar era because of incomplete data. If he was truly as good defensively as his dWAR, then why did he only get votes in 2 Hof elections and only 1 vote each time? I get that he is more deserving than Tommy McCarthy and others, but his numbers, other than WAR, don't scream Hofer.

[GeoPoto]

Originally Posted by rats60

but his numbers, other than WAR, don't scream Hofer.

He had less than 2,500 hits and a career BA of .272.
but
He had over 3,500 hits plus walks and a career OBP of .358.
He scored 1,590 runs (just ahead of George Brett and Jim Thome) and had 660 extra-base hits, when home runs were long triples.
His first eight years (with CHC in NL) his team played 1,115 games, an average of less than 140 games/yr. (He played in 987.)
I think he makes it on offense. The fact that he held down SS in that era says as much about his defensive value as, an admittedly, vague dWAR.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

He had less than 2,500 hits and a career BA of .272.
but
He had over 3,500 hits plus walks and a career OBP of .358.
He scored 1,590 runs (just ahead of George Brett and Jim Thome) and had 660 extra-base hits, when home runs were long triples.
His first eight years (with CHC in NL) his team played 1,115 games, an average of less than 140 games/yr. (He played in 987.)
I think he makes it on offense. The fact that he held down SS in that era says as much about his defensive value as, an admittedly, vague dWAR.

I'm sorry but .272 .358 .382 .740 OPS+110 isn't a Hofer.
However .318 .406 .453 .859 OPS+136 is.
Yet because of dWAR the 1st is supposed to be worth 75.4 and the 2nd only 72.9. You have to ask yourself what is going on? I don't buy that Tinker was the 4th best defensive shortstop, Wallace 8th and Dahlen 9th. I think they are seriously over valued due to WAR because of a lack of data.

Omar Vizquel had 3905 hits plus walks, he doesn't scream Hofer either. He didn't score as many runs, but that is dependent on having teammates to drive you in. Counting stats only go so far.