Who will be selected to the MLB HOF next Tuesday

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Whoever doesn't vote for him should have their voting privileges revoked for being a complete moron. I don't get why so many in the past didn't get 100% of the vote. I get there are players that are borderline but with players like Jeter there is no question on if he is a HOFer or not.

I didn't say he wasn't a Hall of Famer. I said he shouldn't be a first ballot, 100% vote getter. If I had a vote, I would wait until the second ballot. Would I be a moron? He's not the greatest to ever play his position. Not even close.

He was a real good player. He's nowhere near an immortal. He's not in the class of Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio or Mantle. Not even freaking close. He was a shortstop that hit for real good average. Had pretty good speed. Decent power. Awful defensively, and he struck out way, way too much for a guy with his middle-of-the-pack power, and didn't walk. 1,082 walks in 12,602 PAs is putrid, as is 1,840 strikeouts.

He led the league in runs scored twice, and hits twice. That's it. For a twenty year career, a first ballot Hall of Famer should be more dominating than that. And a unanimous first ballot Hall of Famer? LOL. Please.

He never won a batting title. Never won an MVP. Only three top 5 MVP finishes for a guy that was "the face of baseball", on the most visible team in pro sports, a team that was consistently in the World Series during his career. Yawn. When I read discussions about players in other sports, those things matter. When goalies are debated for the Hockey Hall of Fame, "did they win a Vezina Trophy? If not, they can still get in, but shouldn't be on the first ballot. Jeter was never the best player in the game, or in his league. And it can be argued he wasn't even the best at his position.

He had a 72.4 career WAR. That's 88th all-time. Mike Trout who is a great player, has more WAR in 9 years than Jeter had in 20. Larry Walker, who is on his final ballot, in three fewer years, had .3 more WAR. Walker won three batting titles. Led the league in home runs once. Led the league in on base twice. Slugging twice. OPS twice. Had a season with 400 total bases. And it wasn't Coors doing that. His 1997 MVP season, when he hit .366 with a league leading 49 home runs, slashing .452/.720/1.172 (all led the NL)--here are his splits:

Home: 20 HR, .460 OBP/.709 SLG/1.169 OPS
Away: 29 HR, .443 OBP/.733 SLG/1.176 OPS

He was better on the road than at Coors. But the narrative is that he was a product of the thin air.

Walker's career OPS +, which factors in ballpark, was 141. Jeter's was 115. Walker, unlike Jeter, was actually a pretty good fielder when he won those seven Gold Gloves. Jeter...was not.

Yet Larry Walker, a "product of Coors Field" who had a composite 137 OPS+ his last three years in Montreal, is on the ballot for the last time. He may not get in. Yet Captain Ame....I mean, Jeter, will be a unanimous first ballot Hall of Famer?

What a joke.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I didn't say he wasn't a Hall of Famer. I said he shouldn't be a first ballot, 100% vote getter. If I had a vote, I would wait until the second ballot. Would I be a moron? He's not the greatest to ever play his position. Not even close.

He was a real good player. He's nowhere near an immortal. He's not in the class of Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio or Mantle. Not even freaking close. He was a shortstop that hit for real good average. Had pretty good speed. Decent power. Awful defensively, and he struck out way, way too much for a guy with his middle-of-the-pack power, and didn't walk. 1,082 walks in 12,602 PAs is putrid, as is 1,840 strikeouts.

He led the league in runs scored twice, and hits twice. That's it. For a twenty year career, a first ballot Hall of Famer should be more dominating than that. And a unanimous first ballot Hall of Famer? LOL. Please.

He never won a batting title. Never won an MVP. Only three top 5 MVP finishes for a guy that was "the face of baseball", on the most visible team in pro sports, a team that was consistently in the World Series during his career. Yawn. When I read discussions about players in other sports, those things matter. When goalies are debated for the Hockey Hall of Fame, "did they win a Vezina Trophy? If not, they can still get in, but shouldn't be on the first ballot. Jeter was never the best player in the game, or in his league. And it can be argued he wasn't even the best at his position.

He had a 72.4 career WAR. That's 88th all-time. Mike Trout who is a great player, has more WAR in 9 years than Jeter had in 20. Larry Walker, who is on his final ballot, in three fewer years, had .3 more WAR. Walker won three batting titles. Led the league in home runs once. Led the league in on base twice. Slugging twice. OPS twice. Had a season with 400 total bases. And it wasn't Coors doing that. His 1997 MVP season, when he hit .366 with a league leading 49 home runs, slashing .452/.720/1.172 (all led the NL)--here are his splits:

Home: 20 HR, .460 OBP/.709 SLG/1.169 OPS
Away: 29 HR, .443 OBP/.733 SLG/1.176 OPS

He was better on the road than at Coors. But the narrative is that he was a product of the thin air.

Walker's career OPS +, which factors in ballpark, was 141. Jeter's was 115. Walker, unlike Jeter, was actually a pretty good fielder when he won those seven Gold Gloves. Jeter...was not.

Yet Larry Walker, a "product of Coors Field" who had a composite 137 OPS+ his last three years in Montreal, is on the ballot for the last time. He may not get in. Yet Captain Ame....I mean, Jeter, will be a unanimous first ballot Hall of Famer?

What a joke.

My post is about if Jeter is a HOFer or not. You say also say he is.

Larry Walker has not been voted in for very good reasons and should not get voted in this year. Unless they changed the name to Hall of Above Average.

[cardsagain74]

Also, when it comes to Schmidt, even if none of the PEDs made him bigger or stronger, it seems pretty clear that he took part in activities that enhanced your results from them. And yes, they were "handed out like candy", but steroids were pretty available too to just about anyone who played in the roid boys era. It's not like only the best players used them then either.

The point is that readily available PEDs (and other cheating methods in the past) likely turned some really great players into superhuman ones, just like the situation with Bonds, Clemens, etc. And how that makes it senseless and unfair to shame/blackball only the roid boys

[Republicaninmass]

If they were told drinking whale sperm would make them play better, they'd drink it.

[packs]

Originally Posted by bnorth

My post is about if Jeter is a HOFer or not. You say also say he is.

Larry Walker has not been voted in for very good reasons and should not get voted in this year. Unless they changed the name to Hall of Above Average.

Can you name another just above average player who hit 360 three years in a row?

Or how about just another above average player who hit 360 or above three times in their entire career?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by packs

Can you name another just above average player who hit 360 three years in a row?

Or how about just another above average player who hit 360 or above three times in their entire career?

A lot of players did some great things a few times. That does not make them a HOFer. Bill Madlock won 4 batting titles does that make him a HOFer?

Larry had 2160 hits, 383 home runs, 1311, RBIs and a .313 batting average. If those are HOF #s there should be a LOT more people in the HOF than there is now.

[packs]

Originally Posted by bnorth

A lot of players did some great things a few times. That does not make them a HOFer. Bill Madlock won 4 batting titles does that make him a HOFer?

Larry had 2160 hits, 383 home runs, 1311, RBIs and a .313 batting average. If those are HOF #s there should be a LOT more people in the HOF than there is now.

Bill Marlock didn't hit 360 once in his entire career.

How far apart do you put Walker and Vlad in their careers? Walker's got a significant lead in WAR, a higher OPS and a higher OPS+. He's also got 7 gold gloves.

Vlad was elected in his second ballot.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by packs

Bill Marlock didn't hit 360 once in his entire career.

How far apart do you put Walker and Vlad in their careers? Walker's got a significant lead in WAR, a higher OPS and a higher OPS+. He's also got 7 gold gloves.

Vlad was elected in his second ballot.

It is all just opinions. The HOF is just a tourist trap invented by someone to attract tourists. They even used a made up story for years to attract those tourists. Any argument about who should or should not be displayed in a tourist trap is silly.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by bnorth

A lot of players did some great things a few times. That does not make them a HOFer. Bill Madlock won 4 batting titles does that make him a HOFer?

Larry had 2160 hits, 383 home runs, 1311, RBIs and a .313 batting average. If those are HOF #s there should be a LOT more people in the HOF than there is now.

I guess if those are the only stats you use to judge a HOFer, then sure. But there are certainly many more contributions a player can make.
I'm open to the idea that Walker isn't deserving, but you'll have to raise a point that isn't countered in this story first:
https://www.cooperstowncred.com/larr...eld-conundrum/

It does seem like Walker won't make it now (I think he will in a subsequent Veteran's Committee vote). Funny that Peter Gammons, who has voted for him in the past, dropped him from the ballot this year, certainly denting his cause as Walker's voting will really go down to just a handful of votes.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by packs

Can you name another just above average player who hit 360 three years in a row?

Or how about just another above average player who hit 360 or above three times in their entire career?

You obviously can't compare Coors field batting averages and OPS numbers to anyone else.

Walker, Helton, Arenado. All hit 60-70 points higher at home with an OPS a mile higher. Not to mention that the three in a row .360 Walker years were during the late '90s when the ball was popping off Mario Mendoza's bat.

IMO the only HOFer out of that group should be Arenado b/c of his glove too. Assuming his career stays on the same path

[packs]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

You obviously can't compare Coors field batting averages and OPS numbers to anyone else.

Walker, Helton, Arenado. All hit 60-70 points higher at home with an OPS a mile higher. Not to mention that the three in a row .360 Walker years were during the late '90s when the ball was popping off Mario Mendoza's bat.

IMO the only HOFer out of that group should be Arenado b/c of his glove too. Assuming his career stays on the same path

Interesting thing to say when discussing Walker, who has 7 gold gloves. As far as I know Coors Field doesn't make it easier to win gold gloves.

Why didn't everyone else hit 360 while Walker was?

1997: Walker hit 366. Next closest guy on the Rockies hit 318. Difference of 48 points.
1998: Walker hit 363. Next closest guy on the Rockies hit 331. Difference of 32 points.
1999: Walker hit 379. Next closest guy on the Rockies hit 320. Difference of 59 points.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by packs

Interesting thing to say when discussing Walker, who has 7 gold gloves. As far as I know Coors Field doesn't make it easier to win gold gloves.

Why didn't everyone else hit 360 while Walker was?

1997: Walker hit 366. Next closest guy on the Rockies hit 318. Difference of 48 points.
1998: Walker hit 363. Next closest guy on the Rockies hit 331. Difference of 32 points.
1999: Walker hit 379. Next closest guy on the Rockies hit 320. Difference of 59 points.

So what did the next closest players hit at Coors and away?

[packs]

Originally Posted by bnorth

So what did the next closest players hit at Coors and away?

Not sure. I'm not doubting that Coors Field isn't prone to inflated numbers, but suggesting that just anyone could have done what Walker did by virtue of playing there isn't true. He was exceptional and much better than anyone else on the team.

Almost his entire prime was spent in Colorado, but look what he did with it. An MVP, three batting titles, 5 out of 7 of his gold gloves were won there. He isn't just some guy hacking away in Colorado. The team was full of people like that; Dante Bichette, Andres Gallaraga, Vinny Castillo. Larry Walker was heads and shoulders above them and that's why he's the only one with a HOF case.

Also, just to illustrate how much better Walker was than any other homer happy Rockies player, in the three years Walker hit 360 or better, he was the ONLY player on Colorado to put up an OPS over 1.000.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bnorth

So what did the next closest players hit at Coors and away?

amazing he did have 230 steals

but power in 1998 he has almost 3x more homers at home versus on road and 1999 he had 26 homers at home and 11 homers away...

in 1997 he did have 9 or so more homers away , still you can see power greatly impacted at home ...batting average isnt everything...unless you are close to 3000 hits etc.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by packs

Interesting thing to say when discussing Walker, who has 7 gold gloves. As far as I know Coors Field doesn't make it easier to win gold gloves.

Why didn't everyone else hit 360 while Walker was?

1997: Walker hit 366. Next closest guy on the Rockies hit 318. Difference of 48 points.
1998: Walker hit 363. Next closest guy on the Rockies hit 331. Difference of 32 points.
1999: Walker hit 379. Next closest guy on the Rockies hit 320. Difference of 59 points.

"Everyone else" didn't hit .360 because that's still awful tough to do, regardless of when or where. No one is denying that he was a great hitter. The point is that the numbers are still highly exaggerated because all the great Rockies hitters' home/road splits look like that.

And I know he was a really good outfielder too. His defensive WAR numbers don't show his skills (compared to Arenado), but I should probably give him more of the benefit of the doubt for that.

Walker is, at minimum, very close to HOF standards. but it seems unlikely that his numbers would've gotten him in had he not played for the Rockies. It's a close call.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

"Everyone else" didn't hit .360 because that's still awful tough to do, regardless of when or where. No one is denying that he was a great hitter. The point is that the numbers are still highly exaggerated because all the great Rockies hitters' home/road splits look like that.

And I know he was a really good outfielder too. His defensive WAR numbers don't show his skills (compared to Arenado), but I should probably give him more of the benefit of the doubt for that.

Walker is, at minimum, very close to HOF standards. but it seems unlikely that his numbers would've gotten him in had he not played for the Rockies. It's a close call.

right he is a great hitter but lets not kid ourselves, .360 is a shiny number...if its .320..its a great number but not shiny and HOF likes shiny numbers and the .360 is because of coors.

If Walker was great in the postseason (Andy Pettite) that would be something to consider but still hasnt worked for Petite.

however hitting .320 for 12 years is better than 4 shiny .360's or whatever, go and get 3000 hits (shiny number) and end the discussion..

[cardsagain74]

And to be fair, there are other parks that should get almost as bad of a rep as Coors (when it comes to inflated hitting numbers). Especially Fenway. People know that places like it and Yankee Stadium are hitter friendly, but they don't take it into account as much as they should.

If you switched Wade Boggs and Tony Gwynn's parks, one wouldn't sniff the hall of fame and the other would've had lifetime numbers like Ty Cobb

[packs]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

"Everyone else" didn't hit .360 because that's still awful tough to do, regardless of when or where. No one is denying that he was a great hitter. The point is that the numbers are still highly exaggerated because all the great Rockies hitters' home/road splits look like that.

And I know he was a really good outfielder too. His defensive WAR numbers don't show his skills (compared to Arenado), but I should probably give him more of the benefit of the doubt for that.

Walker is, at minimum, very close to HOF standards. but it seems unlikely that his numbers would've gotten him in had he not played for the Rockies. It's a close call.

Just for reference, here are Walker's home / away splits from his MVP season. Wouldn't this have been an MVP season for any player?


Home: 384 average, 20 homers, 68 rbis, 460 OBP, 1.169 OPS
Away: 346 average, 29 homers, 62 rbis, 443 OBP, 1.176 OPS

He also put up a 30/30 season that year. As far as I know Coors Field has never equated to an advantage in stolen bases.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

You obviously can't compare Coors field batting averages and OPS numbers to anyone else.

Walker, Helton, Arenado. All hit 60-70 points higher at home with an OPS a mile higher. Not to mention that the three in a row .360 Walker years were during the late '90s when the ball was popping off Mario Mendoza's bat.

IMO the only HOFer out of that group should be Arenado b/c of his glove too. Assuming his career stays on the same path

You should see Royce Clayton's splits at Coors field.

DJ LeMathieu hit .390 at home in 2016 and .303 on road . in 2014 hit .316 at home and .216 on road (100 point difference)

Carlos Gonzalez hit .336 at home and .160 on road in 2014..


dont know about HOF but Braves will win the World Series 2020..

[howard38]

/

[seanofjapan]

I'm really glad to see Larry Walker got in, it was well deserved (for reasons the stache laid out above).

I think some other guy got in too, but who cares? Walker Walker Walker!!!