Glory of Their Times

[byrone]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Do you recall what Davy Jones answered when Ritter asked him why they pulled tricks on him? Cobb was getting into fights his whole life. And I'll take the evidence I heard on the tapes over the "thin gruel" that has been presented so far on the other side. I have no problem calling the entire country racist during that period, in fact there's still a lot of that going around. You can believe whatever you want, but let's not sugarcoat our history or start putting revisionist spins on it, it is what it is.

I'll leave it as is...calling a man racist with no evidence is wrong.
Perhaps if Cobb was your Grandfather you'd reconsider

I purchased your Walter Johnson book from you a few years ago, enjoyed it

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by byrone

I'll leave it as is...calling a man racist with no evidence is wrong.
Perhaps if Cobb was your Grandfather you'd reconsider

I purchased your Walter Johnson book from you a few years ago, enjoyed it

I'm glad you liked my book, Byrone, thanks for that. But you keep saying "no evidence" as if the Crawford and Jones tapes don't exist. I keep asking for some firm evidence that Cobb was somehow the opposite of what they claimed. There was considerable evidence to that effect about my grandfather, and I wrote about and documented it. Where's the evidence for Cobb? The games he played against black teams; contemporary admiration for the black players of his time; etc.? As for his fighting, he got into lots of fights for different reasons, not just when he was taunted from the stands. The good things I have to say about Cobb in my book far outweigh the bad things, something also reflected by the players in "Glory" the book and audio. I just don't see any reason to try to pretend that the bad wasn't there, too. Perhaps the picture of Cobb painted in the past did accentuate the bad to an unfair degree, and the one-sided impression created by Stump and others needed to be corrected, but there's no sense in going too far now in the other direction and trying to pretend he was some kind of saint. Feel free to respond to this, Byrone, then let's close it out, I'm all Cobbed out!

[byrone]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I'm glad you liked my book, Byrone, thanks for that. But you keep saying "no evidence" as if the Crawford and Jones tapes don't exist. I keep asking for some firm evidence that Cobb was somehow the opposite of what they claimed. There was considerable evidence to that effect about my grandfather, and I wrote about and documented it. Where's the evidence for Cobb? The games he played against black teams; contemporary admiration for the black players of his time; etc.? As for his fighting, he got into lots of fights for different reasons, not just when he was taunted from the stands. The good things I have to say about Cobb in my book far outweigh the bad things, something also reflected by the players in "Glory" the book and audio. I just don't see any reason to try to pretend that the bad wasn't there, too. Perhaps the picture of Cobb painted in the past did accentuate the bad to an unfair degree, and the one-sided impression created by Stump and others needed to be corrected, but there's no sense in going too far now in the other direction and trying to pretend he was some kind of saint. Feel free to respond to this, Byrone, then let's close it out, I'm all Cobbed out!

Never said Cob was a saint. Don't think anyone ever has.

You seem to put a lot of weight on the possibility that he may have not played against black teams.
It was clear that once Cobb's Detroit season was over, that was it...off he went to Georgia without much thought of baseball. It's probably true that he didn't play much against white teams off-season either.
He hunted and rested mostly.
He detested spring training, often showing up only when he absolutely had to. While many players would need spring training to get in shape, Cobb was already in great shape, from all his hunting and hiking over the winter.

And as mentioned, if Crawford or others said that Cobb had no friends in baseball,they lied. He had plenty. And again, it wasn't that Cobb wanted to hang around ball players all year, he obviously enjoyed having time to himself.

I just don't see any reason to try to pretend that the bad wasn't there, too. Perhaps the picture of Cobb painted in the past did accentuate the bad to an unfair degree, and the one-sided impression created by Stump and others needed to be corrected, but there's no sense in going too far now in the other direction and trying to pretend he was some kind of saint


I guess that's what we are seeking, the truth. Was he sometimes bad? He sure was. But racist? I'm not so sure.

And I hate it when people flippantly throw around the word "racist"

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by byrone

Never said Cob was a saint. Don't think anyone ever has.

You seem to put a lot of weight on the possibility that he may have not played against black teams.
It was clear that once Cobb's Detroit season was over, that was it...off he went to Georgia without much thought of baseball. It's probably true that he didn't play much against white teams off-season either.
He hunted and rested mostly.
He detested spring training, often showing up only when he absolutely had to. While many players would need spring training to get in shape, Cobb was already in great shape, from all his hunting and hiking over the winter.

And as mentioned, if Crawford or others said that Cobb had no friends in baseball,they lied. He had plenty. And again, it wasn't that Cobb wanted to hang around ball players all year, he obviously enjoyed having time to himself.

I just don't see any reason to try to pretend that the bad wasn't there, too. Perhaps the picture of Cobb painted in the past did accentuate the bad to an unfair degree, and the one-sided impression created by Stump and others needed to be corrected, but there's no sense in going too far now in the other direction and trying to pretend he was some kind of saint


I guess that's what we are seeking, the truth. Was he sometimes bad? He sure was. But racist? I'm not so sure.

And I hate it when people flippantly throw around the word "racist"

I'm just looking for solid evidence one way or the other, of which very little has been presented in this thread. I have the voices on the tapes, which I believe present all sides of Cobb, many to the positive but also including Crawford's searing comments on his racial attitude. You think Sam made all that up? I doubt it, although you are right that he did exaggerate the extent of Cobb's lack of friends. As I pointed out in my original post, he had many friends, including my grandfather. Upon further evaluation, and as a result of your strenuous objections, I will no longer label Ty Cobb a racist until I see more evidence to that effect. I don't do anything "flippantly," but I did perhaps succumb to a common wisdom of long standing that deserves re-evaluation. On the other hand, I'm very surprised that the scholarship on Cobb in recent times doesn't seem to have established a firm answer to that question. All the letters he wrote? All the interviews he gave over his lifetime? All the articles, all the books? And we are still debating the question? I find that mystifying.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I'm just looking for solid evidence one way or the other, of which very little has been presented in this thread. I have the voices on the tapes, which I believe present all sides of Cobb, many to the positive but also including Crawford's searing comments on his racial attitude. You think Sam made all that up? I doubt it, although you are right that he did exaggerate the extent of Cobb's lack of friends. As I pointed out in my original post, he had many friends, including my grandfather. Upon further evaluation, and as a result of your strenuous objections, I will no longer label Ty Cobb a racist until I see more evidence to that effect. I don't do anything "flippantly," but I did perhaps succumb to a common wisdom of long standing that deserves re-evaluation. On the other hand, I'm very surprised that the scholarship on Cobb in recent times doesn't seem to have established a firm answer to that question. All the letters he wrote? All the interviews he gave over his lifetime? All the articles, all the books? And we are still debating the question? I find that mystifying.

Since you are trying to prove a negative - that Cobb was not a racist, then you are making that point with your words, bolded above. If Cobb is accused of being a racist, yet after all the letters, interviews, etc. it is still not established, then odds are strong it is not there.

Put another way, had Cobb been a racist, it would have been clearly established by now, probably by his own words, spoken or written somewhere.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Put another way, had Cobb been a racist, it would have been clearly established by now, probably by his own words, spoken or written somewhere.

Your point about requiring evidence is well made, but not this part of it, in my opinion. It's not something that was ever addressed in either direction by the vast majority of ballplayers, I would guess, an extremely controversial topic and not something they would want to appear in print about. Have you heard Crawford on the "Glory" tapes? I don't see how his stories can be discounted entirely, but as I noted, I'm suspending all judgement on the matter and keeping an open mind. I will even go so far as to admit that I was wrong to call him that with just that one interview with a teammate to go on.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Your point about requiring evidence is well made, but not this part of it, in my opinion. It's not something that was ever addressed in either direction by the vast majority of ballplayers, I would guess, an extremely controversial topic and not something they would want to appear in print about. Have you heard Crawford on the "Glory" tapes? I don't see how his stories can be discounted entirely, but as I noted, I'm suspending all judgement on the matter and keeping an open mind. I will even go so far as to admit that I was wrong to call him that with just that one interview with a teammate to go on.

Take a look at the link I posted. If you could personally confirm some of the assertions made - that Cobb was quoted as saying blacks should be able to play in the Majors, and that he personally attended and threw out the first pitch in some Negro League games, and then sat in the dugout with players, would that be enough for you to conclude Cobb was definitely NOT a racist?

If so, apparently those events are documented somewhere. Perhaps the author includes his original sources within his book, or maybe you could contact him directly.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Your point about requiring evidence is well made, but not this part of it, in my opinion. It's not something that was ever addressed in either direction by the vast majority of ballplayers, I would guess, an extremely controversial topic and not something they would want to appear in print about. Have you heard Crawford on the "Glory" tapes? I don't see how his stories can be discounted entirely, but as I noted, I'm suspending all judgement on the matter and keeping an open mind. I will even go so far as to admit that I was wrong to call him that with just that one interview with a teammate to go on.

not sure if I am remembering correctly regarding the "Glory" tapes...definitely Davy Jones...not sure about Sam Crawford...but the supposed incident between Cobb and the groundskeeper's wife (and subsequently Boss Schmidt). The only two people who know whether that story is true or not are Schmidt and Cobb. Schmidt claimed that it happened. Cobb denied it. Press ran with Schmidt's story but did no follow up with the groundskeeper or his wife. So if teammates are retelling this story, they are doing so without firsthand knowledge based on what Schmidt said happened. It is worth noting that Hughie Jennings was about to begin his first year as manager of the Tigers at the time, and he was actively trying to get rid of Cobb due to his being a "disruption" for the team. Hugh Fullerton would later write that Jennings used Schnidt to engineer a "gentle frame up" of Cobb...to make Cobb look worse to Frank Navin who had no intention of trading Cobb.

Just some food for thought.

[Mark17]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzbJn2UAoIs

Compelling case for Cobb being a non-racist.

[Case12]

I grew up in the deep South Georgia in the 60's. My family back to the Civil War. Concept of racism is different back then than today. Back then, culture and color segregation was not seen as racist. It was normal. Racist then was if you really hated the negros. So, taken into context of history, did Cobb hate negros?.... If he didn't, he was normal like most all other of us white folk...

[lumberjack]

An interesting thing about the audio version of Ritter's work is what was left out.

Chief Meyers, a charmer on tape, remained bitter about the treatment of Native Americans, something we couldn't pick up on in the book.

Rube Bressler, who was cut by the Cardinals at the end of his career, was still very angry about his treatment in St. Louis. His take on Branch Rickey is eye-opening.

Ritter was interviewed by Mike Shannon for "Baseball The Writers' Game." It is very insightful. Ritter mentioned interviewing a player who was senile (we don't discover who). He also said not all of the interviews were productive, but he blamed himself for that. Someone (it may have been Ritter) said Willie Kamm was so dispassionate about his baseball career that he could have been talking about someone other than himself.

As for Cobb being a racist, where this thread seems to be leaning, let's just say that Ty Cobb was difficult. Odd might be a better fit. There IS plenty of evidence of that.
lumberjack

[Klrdds]

Having seen the royalty checks posted here , and seeing others in the past I wonder about the differing amounts per player , and how the royalty amounts for each player were determined as well as how long did the players receive the royalty checks ?
One thing is clear and that is that Ritter did a great job with the book and by all I’ve ever heard or read he tried to treat the players fairly throughout the process .

[Bicem]

For what it's worth, there was a letter written by Cobb (I think early 1920's if I recall) to a friend that was on eBay for a long time. In this letter, Cobb was talking about a piece of land he thought his friend should purchase. There was someone (who was black) that said the land was great hunting territory. When referencing this gentleman Cobb referred to him as "a Negro" which of course was very common practice at the time and he doesn't say anything negative about him (just how he said it was good hunting land). I would think if Cobb was truly the racist monster that he's made out to be, that he probably would have used another word to describe the man.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Bicem

For what it's worth, there was a letter written by Cobb (I think early 1920's if I recall) to a friend that was on eBay for a long time. In this letter, Cobb was talking about a piece of land he thought his friend should purchase. There was someone (who was black) that said the land was great hunting territory. When referencing this gentleman Cobb referred to him as "a Negro" which of course was very common practice at the time and he doesn't say anything negative about him (just how he said it was good hunting land). I would think if Cobb was truly the racist monster that he's made out to be, that he probably would have used another word to describe the man.

Sorry, Jeff, but that's some pretty "thin gruel" on which to hang the answer to an important question about such a significant figure in the game's history. And I could see if cutting both ways: yes, to his credit he didn't use the common pejorative, but why did he feel it necessary to mention that the opinion about the land came from a Negro? To discount this man's judgement, perhaps, as in "take it with a grain of salt?" Why else would you mention his race?