Glory of Their Times

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by byrone

Little razzing indeed. Do you recall what they did to Cobb?

"The pretty thin gruel to chew on" would be calling someone a racist without evidence.

Regardless, no one should be called "racist" without strong evidence showing such.

Do you recall what Davy Jones answered when Ritter asked him why they pulled tricks on him? Cobb was getting into fights his whole life. And I'll take the evidence I heard on the tapes over the "thin gruel" that has been presented so far on the other side. I have no problem calling the entire country racist during that period, in fact there's still a lot of that going around. You can believe whatever you want, but let's not sugarcoat our history or start putting revisionist spins on it, it is what it is.

[byrone]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Do you recall what Davy Jones answered when Ritter asked him why they pulled tricks on him? Cobb was getting into fights his whole life. And I'll take the evidence I heard on the tapes over the "thin gruel" that has been presented so far on the other side. I have no problem calling the entire country racist during that period, in fact there's still a lot of that going around. You can believe whatever you want, but let's not sugarcoat our history or start putting revisionist spins on it, it is what it is.

I'll leave it as is...calling a man racist with no evidence is wrong.
Perhaps if Cobb was your Grandfather you'd reconsider

I purchased your Walter Johnson book from you a few years ago, enjoyed it

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by byrone

I'll leave it as is...calling a man racist with no evidence is wrong.
Perhaps if Cobb was your Grandfather you'd reconsider

I purchased your Walter Johnson book from you a few years ago, enjoyed it

I'm glad you liked my book, Byrone, thanks for that. But you keep saying "no evidence" as if the Crawford and Jones tapes don't exist. I keep asking for some firm evidence that Cobb was somehow the opposite of what they claimed. There was considerable evidence to that effect about my grandfather, and I wrote about and documented it. Where's the evidence for Cobb? The games he played against black teams; contemporary admiration for the black players of his time; etc.? As for his fighting, he got into lots of fights for different reasons, not just when he was taunted from the stands. The good things I have to say about Cobb in my book far outweigh the bad things, something also reflected by the players in "Glory" the book and audio. I just don't see any reason to try to pretend that the bad wasn't there, too. Perhaps the picture of Cobb painted in the past did accentuate the bad to an unfair degree, and the one-sided impression created by Stump and others needed to be corrected, but there's no sense in going too far now in the other direction and trying to pretend he was some kind of saint. Feel free to respond to this, Byrone, then let's close it out, I'm all Cobbed out!

[byrone]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I'm glad you liked my book, Byrone, thanks for that. But you keep saying "no evidence" as if the Crawford and Jones tapes don't exist. I keep asking for some firm evidence that Cobb was somehow the opposite of what they claimed. There was considerable evidence to that effect about my grandfather, and I wrote about and documented it. Where's the evidence for Cobb? The games he played against black teams; contemporary admiration for the black players of his time; etc.? As for his fighting, he got into lots of fights for different reasons, not just when he was taunted from the stands. The good things I have to say about Cobb in my book far outweigh the bad things, something also reflected by the players in "Glory" the book and audio. I just don't see any reason to try to pretend that the bad wasn't there, too. Perhaps the picture of Cobb painted in the past did accentuate the bad to an unfair degree, and the one-sided impression created by Stump and others needed to be corrected, but there's no sense in going too far now in the other direction and trying to pretend he was some kind of saint. Feel free to respond to this, Byrone, then let's close it out, I'm all Cobbed out!

Never said Cob was a saint. Don't think anyone ever has.

You seem to put a lot of weight on the possibility that he may have not played against black teams.
It was clear that once Cobb's Detroit season was over, that was it...off he went to Georgia without much thought of baseball. It's probably true that he didn't play much against white teams off-season either.
He hunted and rested mostly.
He detested spring training, often showing up only when he absolutely had to. While many players would need spring training to get in shape, Cobb was already in great shape, from all his hunting and hiking over the winter.

And as mentioned, if Crawford or others said that Cobb had no friends in baseball,they lied. He had plenty. And again, it wasn't that Cobb wanted to hang around ball players all year, he obviously enjoyed having time to himself.

I just don't see any reason to try to pretend that the bad wasn't there, too. Perhaps the picture of Cobb painted in the past did accentuate the bad to an unfair degree, and the one-sided impression created by Stump and others needed to be corrected, but there's no sense in going too far now in the other direction and trying to pretend he was some kind of saint


I guess that's what we are seeking, the truth. Was he sometimes bad? He sure was. But racist? I'm not so sure.

And I hate it when people flippantly throw around the word "racist"

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by byrone

Never said Cob was a saint. Don't think anyone ever has.

You seem to put a lot of weight on the possibility that he may have not played against black teams.
It was clear that once Cobb's Detroit season was over, that was it...off he went to Georgia without much thought of baseball. It's probably true that he didn't play much against white teams off-season either.
He hunted and rested mostly.
He detested spring training, often showing up only when he absolutely had to. While many players would need spring training to get in shape, Cobb was already in great shape, from all his hunting and hiking over the winter.

And as mentioned, if Crawford or others said that Cobb had no friends in baseball,they lied. He had plenty. And again, it wasn't that Cobb wanted to hang around ball players all year, he obviously enjoyed having time to himself.

I just don't see any reason to try to pretend that the bad wasn't there, too. Perhaps the picture of Cobb painted in the past did accentuate the bad to an unfair degree, and the one-sided impression created by Stump and others needed to be corrected, but there's no sense in going too far now in the other direction and trying to pretend he was some kind of saint


I guess that's what we are seeking, the truth. Was he sometimes bad? He sure was. But racist? I'm not so sure.

And I hate it when people flippantly throw around the word "racist"

I'm just looking for solid evidence one way or the other, of which very little has been presented in this thread. I have the voices on the tapes, which I believe present all sides of Cobb, many to the positive but also including Crawford's searing comments on his racial attitude. You think Sam made all that up? I doubt it, although you are right that he did exaggerate the extent of Cobb's lack of friends. As I pointed out in my original post, he had many friends, including my grandfather. Upon further evaluation, and as a result of your strenuous objections, I will no longer label Ty Cobb a racist until I see more evidence to that effect. I don't do anything "flippantly," but I did perhaps succumb to a common wisdom of long standing that deserves re-evaluation. On the other hand, I'm very surprised that the scholarship on Cobb in recent times doesn't seem to have established a firm answer to that question. All the letters he wrote? All the interviews he gave over his lifetime? All the articles, all the books? And we are still debating the question? I find that mystifying.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I'm just looking for solid evidence one way or the other, of which very little has been presented in this thread. I have the voices on the tapes, which I believe present all sides of Cobb, many to the positive but also including Crawford's searing comments on his racial attitude. You think Sam made all that up? I doubt it, although you are right that he did exaggerate the extent of Cobb's lack of friends. As I pointed out in my original post, he had many friends, including my grandfather. Upon further evaluation, and as a result of your strenuous objections, I will no longer label Ty Cobb a racist until I see more evidence to that effect. I don't do anything "flippantly," but I did perhaps succumb to a common wisdom of long standing that deserves re-evaluation. On the other hand, I'm very surprised that the scholarship on Cobb in recent times doesn't seem to have established a firm answer to that question. All the letters he wrote? All the interviews he gave over his lifetime? All the articles, all the books? And we are still debating the question? I find that mystifying.

Since you are trying to prove a negative - that Cobb was not a racist, then you are making that point with your words, bolded above. If Cobb is accused of being a racist, yet after all the letters, interviews, etc. it is still not established, then odds are strong it is not there.

Put another way, had Cobb been a racist, it would have been clearly established by now, probably by his own words, spoken or written somewhere.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Put another way, had Cobb been a racist, it would have been clearly established by now, probably by his own words, spoken or written somewhere.

Your point about requiring evidence is well made, but not this part of it, in my opinion. It's not something that was ever addressed in either direction by the vast majority of ballplayers, I would guess, an extremely controversial topic and not something they would want to appear in print about. Have you heard Crawford on the "Glory" tapes? I don't see how his stories can be discounted entirely, but as I noted, I'm suspending all judgement on the matter and keeping an open mind. I will even go so far as to admit that I was wrong to call him that with just that one interview with a teammate to go on.

[Mark17]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzbJn2UAoIs

Compelling case for Cobb being a non-racist.

[Bicem]

For what it's worth, there was a letter written by Cobb (I think early 1920's if I recall) to a friend that was on eBay for a long time. In this letter, Cobb was talking about a piece of land he thought his friend should purchase. There was someone (who was black) that said the land was great hunting territory. When referencing this gentleman Cobb referred to him as "a Negro" which of course was very common practice at the time and he doesn't say anything negative about him (just how he said it was good hunting land). I would think if Cobb was truly the racist monster that he's made out to be, that he probably would have used another word to describe the man.

[byrone]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Do you recall what Davy Jones answered when Ritter asked him why they pulled tricks on him? Cobb was getting into fights his whole life. And I'll take the evidence I heard on the tapes over the "thin gruel" that has been presented so far on the other side. I have no problem calling the entire country racist during that period, in fact there's still a lot of that going around. You can believe whatever you want, but let's not sugarcoat our history or start putting revisionist spins on it, it is what it is.

From Davy Jones' NY Times obituary


In an interview in 1970, Mr. Jones told how he spearheaded a strike in 1912 involving the centerfielder, met with club owners to patch things up and then helped to organize players’ fraternity, the forerunner to the present Major League Baseball Players Association.

“We were in New York and a fellow was insulting Cobb,” Mr. Jones said. “I told Cobb that if he didn't punch him in the nose then I would. Cobb went up there and gave the man a beating,” he said. Cobb was suspended and fined $500. Mr. Jones said that when Cobb had not been reinstated when the team moved to Philadelphia, he talked the Detroit players into walking out. They refused to play until Cobb was reinstated.

He was reinstated and league officials approved a rule allowing players the right to ask that tormentors bi ejected from ball parks.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Do you recall what Davy Jones answered when Ritter asked him why they pulled tricks on him? Cobb was getting into fights his whole life. And I'll take the evidence I heard on the tapes over the "thin gruel" that has been presented so far on the other side. I have no problem calling the entire country racist during that period, in fact there's still a lot of that going around. You can believe whatever you want, but let's not sugarcoat our history or start putting revisionist spins on it, it is what it is.

The problem I have with this line of thinking is that it merely perpetuates the unfounded talking point that he was "constantly fighting the civil war". This connotes that his pugilistic attitudes were simply a product of his Southern upbringing. Just because Sam Crawford said it and many newspapers of the time said it does not make it so. That is way too simplistic and lazy for this exceedingly complicated man. "He is a Southerner and he is combative therefore he"... X y and z. Sorry not buying it. The revisionist history you describe is what has been written about Cobb since he arrived in Detroit. He was very hard to understand and frequently played into what was written about him during his playing career so as to use it to his advantage on the field of play. The press was all too eager and lazy to oblige.

And again, the mention of Cobb and "racist" together simply continues another lazy talking point that is unproven and actually contradicts much of the known facts about his life. What we know as fact shows that his lineage is that of Southerners who were sympathetic to the cause of blacks, that his quotes show a man supportive of the integration of baseball, and his actions show a great financial support of those less fortunate of all races. As you say, it is easy to show most all people from that era as being racist, especially using today's definition of the term. But he was certainty no moreso than the general public at large, and the facts show that he was likely less so.

The revisionist history is what Al Stump and other authors have done to his legacy. It's a lazy way of looking at a complicated man. Certainty no saint as you say. Hard to know and hard to like by many. But he obviously was also misunderstood even by many of those closest to him such as Sam Crawford who said in the Ritter tapes that he hadn't a friend in baseball. That is incorrect to the extreme and is contradicted by others on the tapes as well. So as to these firsthand accounts of Crawford and Jones which seem to be perhaps a bit clouded by personal feelings of animosity, possible jealousy, and the decades since the events had happened by the time they were interviewed by Ritter...always with a grain of salt.

[Case12]

Taken all together - Cobb was mean, but not evil....as such, it made him great....

[todeen]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Do you recall what Davy Jones answered when Ritter asked him why they pulled tricks on him? Cobb was getting into fights his whole life. And I'll take the evidence I heard on the tapes over the "thin gruel" that has been presented so far on the other side. I have no problem calling the entire country racist during that period, in fact there's still a lot of that going around. You can believe whatever you want, but let's not sugarcoat our history or start putting revisionist spins on it, it is what it is.

+1

I made a comment similar to this in the Top 50 Hated Players thread, and it wasn't regarded highly by some there either.