Glory of Their Times

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

I think he's referring to the "50 Most Hated Players of All Time" thread elsewhere on Net 54.

No, I'm speaking literally. Is he saying he should be considered a hated player or should NOT be considered a hated player? The statement I quoted is baffling, especially the multiple uses of "primary source(s)" in the same sentence. He was "mentioned universally," but how? In a bad way? In a good way?? Huh???

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

No, I'm speaking literally. Is he saying he should be considered a hated player or should NOT be considered a hated player? The statement I quoted is baffling, especially the multiple uses of "primary source(s)" in the same sentence. He was "mentioned universally," but how? In a bad way? In a good way?? Huh???

Basically a Harvard way of saying "People that ought to know Cobb found him to be a lonely prick"
...That's the jiist I got, anyway.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Phil68

Basically a Harvard way of saying "People that ought to know Cobb found him to be a lonely prick"
...That's the jiist I got, anyway.

In The Glory of their Times, read what Joe Wood said about Cobb. He thought Ty was a fair player, not dirty. As to Ty being lonely, is that a reason to hate him or have empathy for him? He grew up in the south not long after they lost the Civil War, went to play for a team in the far north, had his mother kill his father under mysterious circumstances..... of course he felt like an outsider.

During his playing days, Cobb was competing (fighting) against those players. But after he retired, he often sent money, quietly, to guys who were struggling financially. To try to judge Cobb you first have to make a serious effort to understand him, which isn't easy.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Mark17

In The Glory of their Times, read what Joe Wood said about Cobb. He thought Ty was a fair player, not dirty. As to Ty being lonely, is that a reason to hate him or have empathy for him? He grew up in the south not long after they lost the Civil War, went to play for a team in the far north, had his mother kill his father under mysterious circumstances..... of course he felt like an outsider.

During his playing days, Cobb was competing (fighting) against those players. But after he retired, he often sent money, quietly, to guys who were struggling financially. To try to judge Cobb you first have to make a serious effort to understand him, which isn't easy.

The overwhelming consensus on Ritter's tapes, even from teammates who paint him in an unattractive light in many other respects, is that on the ballfield he was tough but fair, that he was decidedly NOT a dirty player. I'm no Cobb scholar, but from the research for my book and from listening to every second of the "Glory" tapes, my opinion is that Ty Cobb was quite a complicated individual, like most of us a mixture of good and bad impulses, and also a man very much of his time and his upbringing, again like most of us and a mix of good and bad. If you were on the receiving end of his racism, temper, or obsessive drive to win, you didn't have much use for him. If you were on the good side of his friendship and respect or was one who benefited from his sympathy for the underdog or enormous charity toward the underprivileged throughout his lifetime, you liked or even loved him. My grandfather--diametrically opposite in personality--saw all sides of Cobb for decades, and they were good friends. Joe Wood and Clyde Milan, wonderful men by all accounts, were hunting buddies of Cobb's. My mother remembered him fondly and called him "the perfect southern gentleman." What you thought of Ty Cobb depends on who you were and what you had to do with him, in other words the truth about him is not a simple good or bad or black or white. I do think more people were probably glad that he lived and made the tremendous impact on the game and other people's lives he did than those who would prefer to have never heard his name.

[Phil68]

My opinion of Cobb is, essentially, one of like humanity.
I never met, associated with or had to resolve any conflicts with him. Therefore, I'm not entitled to any opinion. My opinion of like humanity is also limited where Cobb is concerned because I know very few that have been millionaires and brilliant--as Cobb, undeniably, was.
I do think his longevity and sound relationships with the majority of his teammates, opponents and business associates paint him favorably.
In addition, as we learn everyday, people are jealous & petty and seldom look at another person's point of view.
This empirical fact, alone, would mount "common knowledge" of Cobb being an asshole to anyone he didn't comply with.

For me, he's a graceful, beautiful player that I likely would've gotten along with great.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Phil68

For me, he's a graceful, beautiful player that I likely would've gotten along with great.

That would have mostly depended on what he thought of you, I believe.

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

That would have mostly depended on what he thought of you, I believe.

I don't follow. What someone thinks of me is irrelevant.
I can get along with them if I choose to.

[byrone]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

The overwhelming consensus on Ritter's tapes, even from teammates who paint him in an unattractive light in many other respects, is that on the ballfield he was tough but fair, that he was decidedly NOT a dirty player. I'm no Cobb scholar, but from the research for my book and from listening to every second of the "Glory" tapes, my opinion is that Ty Cobb was quite a complicated individual, like most of us a mixture of good and bad impulses, and also a man very much of his time and his upbringing, again like most of us and a mix of good and bad. If you were on the receiving end of his racism, temper, or obsessive drive to win, you didn't have much use for him. If you were on the good side of his friendship and respect or was one who benefited from his sympathy for the underdog or enormous charity toward the underprivileged throughout his lifetime, you liked or even loved him. My grandfather--diametrically opposite in personality--saw all sides of Cobb for decades, and they were good friends. Joe Wood and Clyde Milan, wonderful men by all accounts, were hunting buddies of Cobb's. My mother remembered him fondly and called him "the perfect southern gentleman." What you thought of Ty Cobb depends on who you were and what you had to do with him, in other words the truth about him is not a simple good or bad or black or white. I do think more people were probably glad that he lived and made the tremendous impact on the game and other people's lives he did than those who would prefer to have never heard his name.

Hank, is there much in the way of documented accounts of Cobb being racist?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by byrone

Hank, is there much in the way of documented accounts of Cobb being racist?

Great question, and one I would like to know the answer to myself. I would assume that whatever documentation has been found on the subject one way or the other would be recited in one or more of the several biographies, but I have only read the Alexander book and that was many years ago. My impression to that effect is based mostly on Sam Crawford's interviews with Ritter, which in other respects I found to be honest, accurate, and persuasive. I can't remember if Davy Jones addressed that aspect of Cobb's personality, which he also didn't have much good to say about in general. Those two interviews when it comes to Cobb can perhaps be discounted somewhat by the assumption of some jealousy on their part, but you'd be hard pressed to find two men who saw more of him in a baseball context and off the field as well, so their accounts have to be taken with a great deal of weight and seriousness. The other point I would make is that it would be most surprising, in a country that had so recently fought a civil war over the issue of the legal enslavement of blacks and was still virulently racist in every meaningful respect, to find someone from the deep south who was NOT a racist at that time. But if you can show me that Cobb was the exception that proves the rule, I would be eager to stand corrected.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Great question, and one I would like to know the answer to myself. I would assume that whatever documentation has been found on the subject one way or the other would be recited in one or more of the several biographies, but I have only read the Alexander book and that was many years ago. My impression to that effect is based mostly on Sam Crawford's interviews with Ritter, which in other respects I found to be honest, accurate, and persuasive. I can't remember if Davy Jones addressed that aspect of Cobb's personality, which he also didn't have much good to say about in general. Those two interviews when it comes to Cobb can perhaps be discounted somewhat by the assumption of some jealousy on their part, but you'd be hard pressed to find two men who saw more of him in a baseball context and off the field as well, so their accounts have to be taken with a great deal of weight and seriousness. The other point I would make is that it would be most surprising, in a country that had so recently fought a civil war over the issue of the legal enslavement of blacks and was still virulently racist in every meaningful respect, to find someone from the deep south who was NOT a racist at that time. But if you can show me that Cobb was the exception that proves the rule, I would be eager to stand corrected.

Cobb's grandfather, with whom he was very close, prided himself claiming he was the only person in his town who voted for Lincoln. Cobb's father was a Democrat but in his short time in government work showed many times to be a friend of the black man and was often at odds with those who were openly virulently bigoted. So Cobb came from a lineage of men who bucked the trends on the issue of race during their lifetimes.

To me Cobb had an equal opportunity temper. White men and black men were on the wrong side of it.

And the story of him beating on a black groundskeepers wife and also the groundskeeper himself may have been fictional as it may have been made up by a teammate who was working with new manager Hughie Jennings to find a way to get Cobb off the team as Jennings feared he was "bad for team harmony". There were no other witnesses to the event. The two who he allegedly beat up were never approached by the media of the time. Cobb immediately denied it ever happened.