Glory of Their Times

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Mark17

In The Glory of their Times, read what Joe Wood said about Cobb. He thought Ty was a fair player, not dirty. As to Ty being lonely, is that a reason to hate him or have empathy for him? He grew up in the south not long after they lost the Civil War, went to play for a team in the far north, had his mother kill his father under mysterious circumstances..... of course he felt like an outsider.

During his playing days, Cobb was competing (fighting) against those players. But after he retired, he often sent money, quietly, to guys who were struggling financially. To try to judge Cobb you first have to make a serious effort to understand him, which isn't easy.

The overwhelming consensus on Ritter's tapes, even from teammates who paint him in an unattractive light in many other respects, is that on the ballfield he was tough but fair, that he was decidedly NOT a dirty player. I'm no Cobb scholar, but from the research for my book and from listening to every second of the "Glory" tapes, my opinion is that Ty Cobb was quite a complicated individual, like most of us a mixture of good and bad impulses, and also a man very much of his time and his upbringing, again like most of us and a mix of good and bad. If you were on the receiving end of his racism, temper, or obsessive drive to win, you didn't have much use for him. If you were on the good side of his friendship and respect or was one who benefited from his sympathy for the underdog or enormous charity toward the underprivileged throughout his lifetime, you liked or even loved him. My grandfather--diametrically opposite in personality--saw all sides of Cobb for decades, and they were good friends. Joe Wood and Clyde Milan, wonderful men by all accounts, were hunting buddies of Cobb's. My mother remembered him fondly and called him "the perfect southern gentleman." What you thought of Ty Cobb depends on who you were and what you had to do with him, in other words the truth about him is not a simple good or bad or black or white. I do think more people were probably glad that he lived and made the tremendous impact on the game and other people's lives he did than those who would prefer to have never heard his name.

[Phil68]

My opinion of Cobb is, essentially, one of like humanity.
I never met, associated with or had to resolve any conflicts with him. Therefore, I'm not entitled to any opinion. My opinion of like humanity is also limited where Cobb is concerned because I know very few that have been millionaires and brilliant--as Cobb, undeniably, was.
I do think his longevity and sound relationships with the majority of his teammates, opponents and business associates paint him favorably.
In addition, as we learn everyday, people are jealous & petty and seldom look at another person's point of view.
This empirical fact, alone, would mount "common knowledge" of Cobb being an asshole to anyone he didn't comply with.

For me, he's a graceful, beautiful player that I likely would've gotten along with great.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Phil68

For me, he's a graceful, beautiful player that I likely would've gotten along with great.

That would have mostly depended on what he thought of you, I believe.

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

That would have mostly depended on what he thought of you, I believe.

I don't follow. What someone thinks of me is irrelevant.
I can get along with them if I choose to.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Phil68

I don't follow. What someone thinks of me is irrelevant.
I can get along with them if I choose to.

If you say so, and good for you.

[byrone]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

The overwhelming consensus on Ritter's tapes, even from teammates who paint him in an unattractive light in many other respects, is that on the ballfield he was tough but fair, that he was decidedly NOT a dirty player. I'm no Cobb scholar, but from the research for my book and from listening to every second of the "Glory" tapes, my opinion is that Ty Cobb was quite a complicated individual, like most of us a mixture of good and bad impulses, and also a man very much of his time and his upbringing, again like most of us and a mix of good and bad. If you were on the receiving end of his racism, temper, or obsessive drive to win, you didn't have much use for him. If you were on the good side of his friendship and respect or was one who benefited from his sympathy for the underdog or enormous charity toward the underprivileged throughout his lifetime, you liked or even loved him. My grandfather--diametrically opposite in personality--saw all sides of Cobb for decades, and they were good friends. Joe Wood and Clyde Milan, wonderful men by all accounts, were hunting buddies of Cobb's. My mother remembered him fondly and called him "the perfect southern gentleman." What you thought of Ty Cobb depends on who you were and what you had to do with him, in other words the truth about him is not a simple good or bad or black or white. I do think more people were probably glad that he lived and made the tremendous impact on the game and other people's lives he did than those who would prefer to have never heard his name.

Hank, is there much in the way of documented accounts of Cobb being racist?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by byrone

Hank, is there much in the way of documented accounts of Cobb being racist?

Great question, and one I would like to know the answer to myself. I would assume that whatever documentation has been found on the subject one way or the other would be recited in one or more of the several biographies, but I have only read the Alexander book and that was many years ago. My impression to that effect is based mostly on Sam Crawford's interviews with Ritter, which in other respects I found to be honest, accurate, and persuasive. I can't remember if Davy Jones addressed that aspect of Cobb's personality, which he also didn't have much good to say about in general. Those two interviews when it comes to Cobb can perhaps be discounted somewhat by the assumption of some jealousy on their part, but you'd be hard pressed to find two men who saw more of him in a baseball context and off the field as well, so their accounts have to be taken with a great deal of weight and seriousness. The other point I would make is that it would be most surprising, in a country that had so recently fought a civil war over the issue of the legal enslavement of blacks and was still virulently racist in every meaningful respect, to find someone from the deep south who was NOT a racist at that time. But if you can show me that Cobb was the exception that proves the rule, I would be eager to stand corrected.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Great question, and one I would like to know the answer to myself. I would assume that whatever documentation has been found on the subject one way or the other would be recited in one or more of the several biographies, but I have only read the Alexander book and that was many years ago. My impression to that effect is based mostly on Sam Crawford's interviews with Ritter, which in other respects I found to be honest, accurate, and persuasive. I can't remember if Davy Jones addressed that aspect of Cobb's personality, which he also didn't have much good to say about in general. Those two interviews when it comes to Cobb can perhaps be discounted somewhat by the assumption of some jealousy on their part, but you'd be hard pressed to find two men who saw more of him in a baseball context and off the field as well, so their accounts have to be taken with a great deal of weight and seriousness. The other point I would make is that it would be most surprising, in a country that had so recently fought a civil war over the issue of the legal enslavement of blacks and was still virulently racist in every meaningful respect, to find someone from the deep south who was NOT a racist at that time. But if you can show me that Cobb was the exception that proves the rule, I would be eager to stand corrected.

Cobb's grandfather, with whom he was very close, prided himself claiming he was the only person in his town who voted for Lincoln. Cobb's father was a Democrat but in his short time in government work showed many times to be a friend of the black man and was often at odds with those who were openly virulently bigoted. So Cobb came from a lineage of men who bucked the trends on the issue of race during their lifetimes.

To me Cobb had an equal opportunity temper. White men and black men were on the wrong side of it.

And the story of him beating on a black groundskeepers wife and also the groundskeeper himself may have been fictional as it may have been made up by a teammate who was working with new manager Hughie Jennings to find a way to get Cobb off the team as Jennings feared he was "bad for team harmony". There were no other witnesses to the event. The two who he allegedly beat up were never approached by the media of the time. Cobb immediately denied it ever happened.

[Mark17]

Didn't Cobb have great things to say about some black players, like Willie Mays? A racist probably wouldn't do that.

Tris Speaker also came from the deep south (Texas) and was probably a racist in his younger days, as was typical of southerners born that soon after the war. But in his later years he was noted for mentoring Larry Doby.

If Cobb and Speaker, coming from the south to play in far northern cities, brought some of their regional prejudices with them, they gradually grew with the nation to become much more accepting of blacks. I would say, from what I've read, that they were no more racist, and probably less so, than most of the people in their respective home towns.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Didn't Cobb have great things to say about some black players, like Willie Mays? A racist probably wouldn't do that.

Tris Speaker also came from the deep south (Texas) and was probably a racist in his younger days, as was typical of southerners born that soon after the war. But in his later years he was noted for mentoring Larry Doby.

If Cobb and Speaker, coming from the south to play in far northern cities, brought some of their regional prejudices with them, they gradually grew with the nation to become much more accepting of blacks. I would say, from what I've read, that they were no more racist, and probably less so, than most of the people in their respective home towns.

All good points. When I called Cobb a racist--and as I said, I'm willing to stand corrected on that--I was referring to the younger man, and drew on the comments of his teammates on GOTT. Of course, the country changed dramatically in its racial attitudes over his lifetime, and it would surprising if many of the old-time players didn't change also. For example, I don't know how you could call the U.S. Armed Forces, which remained segregated until 1948, or many of the nation's schools that stayed that way into the 1960s, anything but racist based on those policies. But eventually they changed, the country changed, and people changed. I will ask again what concrete documentation was discovered in the research for his many biographies, and what does it point to in the racial attitudes of the younger Ty Cobb? I did a page or two in my biography of my grandfather on the racial issue and what little I could find where it impacted his careeer, mostly based on a handful of exhibition games he pitched against black teams and his fulsome praise of Josh Gibson after seeing him play in a spring training game in Florida in 1939. What is there on Cobb from original sources, I'd like to know?

[byrone]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

All good points. When I called Cobb a racist--and as I said, I'm willing to stand corrected on that--I was referring to the younger man, and drew on the comments of his teammates on GOTT. Of course, the country changed dramatically in its racial attitudes over his lifetime, and it would surprising if many of the old-time players didn't change also. For example, I don't know how you could call the U.S. Armed Forces, which remained segregated until 1948, or many of the nation's schools that stayed that way into the 1960s, anything but racist based on those policies. But eventually they changed, the country changed, and people changed. I will ask again what concrete documentation was discovered in the research for his many biographies, and what does it point to in the racial attitudes of the younger Ty Cobb? I did a page or two in my biography of my grandfather on the racial issue and what little I could find where it impacted his careeer, mostly based on a handful of exhibition games he pitched against black teams and his fulsome praise of Josh Gibson after seeing him play in a spring training game in Florida in 1939. What is there on Cobb from original sources, I'd like to know?

Here are a few accounts:


But a lot of people have made assumptions about Cobb based on the date of his birth and the location, which was 1886 in Royston, Georgia or near Royston, Georgia, and so people just assume that he must have been a racist. But what they don't know — and what I found out — is that he descends from a long line of abolitionists. His great-grandfather was a preacher who preached against slavery and was run out of town. His grandfather refused to fight in the Confederate army because of the slavery issue. His father was a state senator who spoke up for his black constituents and broke up a lynch mob in town and had a very short political career because of it.

[Cobb] never said anything about race until 1952 when he told the Sporting News that "the Negro has the right to play professional sports," he said, "and who's to say he has not."


https://www.wbur.org/onlyagame/2015/...arles-leerhsen


I have over 40,000 newspaper articles, and NOT one article makes any correlation to Ty Cobb being a racist. All the evidence demonstrates Cobb’s support for the advancement of colored people, and yet, there is NO evidence that gives any indication that Mr. Cobb made any movement toward oppressing the black population.

Contrary, when Jackie Robinson entered into the major leagues, it began a slow process of allowing blacks to begin entering into every league in the country. When the Dallas club of the Texas League was considering allowing blacks to enter, Cobb was there to bat for them.


https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...s-not-a-racist



When he began work on a new biography, “Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty” (Simon & Schuster), Charles Leerhsen expected to uncover fresh depictions of the player as a racist and a spikes-sharpening attacker of opposing infielders. If Cobb was the meanest man in baseball flannels, additional animosity would not be difficult to find.

“I thought I’d find new examples of monstrous monstrosity,” Leerhsen said in an interview last week. “Instead, I found a very different person than the myth. I was a little disappointed at first. He’s more normal than I thought.”

Leerhsen’s research found neither a saint nor a Rabelaisian character like Babe Ruth. Sure, Cobb could be unpleasant and overly sensitive. He had a temper and fought with his share of people, including a fan who heckled him mercilessly. But Leerhsen did not unearth a bigot primed to attack black men or a brandisher of carefully filed daggers beneath his shoes.

“It’s a warts-and-all biography,” Leerhsen said, laughing. “But they’re warts, not tumors.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/01/s...notoriety.html