"Grading Scandal" in a nutshell, please

[Bigdaddy]

Back to the OP's question and reaching back to the recent signed T206 fiasco. I'll use 'TPGs' in general, referring to any of the three letter companies we all know:

1. The TPGs were shown to have negligently certified many signed T206 and other pre-war cards that were proven to have existed in an unsigned condition in the recent past. I do not know of any resolution to this so far other than SGC folding their autograph authentication business.

2. Card trimmers and other card 'enhancers' were caught manipulating cards to bump their grades and therefore increasing the prices they brought on the open market, sometimes by orders of magnitude. Many of these people have been called out by name and more continue to be discovered. This has cast a shadow on many, if not all, high grade slabbed cards. Including everything from tobacco cards to the glossy inserts of today.

3. PWCC and other sellers have been accused of conspiring/enabling/turning a blind eye to these card doctors and bringing their wares to market. They typical response is denial of fore-knowledge, however I believe some refunds have been issued in response to legal pressure.

4. The TPGs have been accused of either complete incompetence in their ability to detect altered cards (at best) or of conspiring with certain known submitters to look the other way (at worst) when grading cards from certain folks. Proof of the card alterations (and the submitters) has been called out and shown by BODA (Blowout Detection Agency) too many times to count. None of the TPGs have taken any responsibility for these actions.

5. The TPGs have been accused of favorable treatment of certain high volume submitters in assigning or revisiting grades to certain cards. This is completely different than the item above which deals with altered cards. PSA even advertises that they offer opportunities for certain folks to 'discuss' the grading of cards that they have submitted. No response from the TPGs on this favoritism charge.

6. And of course the on-going charges of shill bidding and phantom sales continue to manipulate market prices, propping up card prices and leading us closer to a market collapse.

Other than that, nothing to see here. Move along.

Did I miss anything?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Back to the OP's question and reaching back to the recent signed T206 fiasco. I'll use 'TPGs' in general, referring to any of the three letter companies we all know:

1. The TPGs were shown to have negligently certified many signed T206 and other pre-war cards that were proven to have existed in an unsigned condition in the recent past. I do not know of any resolution to this so far other than SGC folding their autograph authentication business.

2. Card trimmers and other card 'enhancers' were caught manipulating cards to bump their grades and therefore increasing the prices they brought on the open market, sometimes by orders of magnitude. Many of these people have been called out by name and more continue to be discovered. This has cast a shadow on many, if not all, high grade slabbed cards. Including everything from tobacco cards to the glossy inserts of today.

3. PWCC and other sellers have been accused of conspiring/enabling/turning a blind eye to these card doctors and bringing their wares to market. They typical response is denial of fore-knowledge, however I believe some refunds have been issued in response to legal pressure.

4. The TPGs have been accused of either complete incompetence in their ability to detect altered cards (at best) or of conspiring with certain known submitters to look the other way (at worst) when grading cards from certain folks. Proof of the card alterations (and the submitters) has been called out and shown by BODA (Blowout Detection Agency) too many times to count. None of the TPGs have taken any responsibility for these actions.

5. The TPGs have been accused of favorable treatment of certain high volume submitters in assigning or revisiting grades to certain cards. This is completely different than the item above which deals with altered cards. PSA even advertises that they offer opportunities for certain folks to 'discuss' the grading of cards that they have submitted. No response from the TPGs on this favoritism charge.

6. And of course the on-going charges of shill bidding and phantom sales continue to manipulate market prices, propping up card prices and leading us closer to a market collapse.

Other than that, nothing to see here. Move along.

Did I miss anything?

Beautiful Synopsis Nail Hit Directly on the Head.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Beautiful Synopsis Nail Hit Directly on the Head.

Agreed... Nice objective recap.

But Bigdaddy did miss one thing. The alterations are quite often amateurish, and very poorly executed. Trimming and re-coloring that would immediately be identified by any credible grader with minimal experience, or very minimal elementary-level training.

It is beyond fishy that they continue to "miss" these obvious alterations, as they slap their 9s and 10s on the same preferred submitters' cards over and over again.

Case in point...

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Agreed... Nice objective recap.

But Bigdaddy did miss one thing. The alterations are quite often amateurish, and very poorly executed. Trimming and re-coloring that would immediately be identified by any credible grader with minimal experience, or very minimal elementary-level training.

It is beyond fishy that they continue to "miss" these obvious alterations, as they slap their 9s and 10s on the same preferred submitters' cards over and over again.

Case in point...

Would love to know who submitted this Miscut Card? How do you grade this card anything other then MC

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Would love to know who submitted this Miscut Card? How do you grade this card anything other then MC

By grading it as altered, which it is.

An 8th grader with a pocketknife could do just as well. (I have the Hostess cards from a scout campout to prove it too Can't complain too much, I was the 8th grader with a pocketknife)

[Leon]

The grading scandal has shown all collectors/hobbyists that TPGs only give their opinions and they are not facts. A lot of us could do a way better job. It has brought about the need for even better understanding of the sets, and their characteristics, than before. And it has made a lot of collectors wary of high grade cards that are short with pointy corners. There are 10s of thousands of altered cards in numerical slabs. The higher the grade the more likely there is fraud but even lower grade cards are not exempt.

[drcy]

Some collectors care about truth and some care about perception. When their money is involved it's usually about perception.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Back to the OP's question and reaching back to the recent signed T206 fiasco. I'll use 'TPGs' in general, referring to any of the three letter companies we all know:

1. The TPGs were shown to have negligently certified many signed T206 and other pre-war cards that were proven to have existed in an unsigned condition in the recent past. I do not know of any resolution to this so far other than SGC folding their autograph authentication business.

2. Card trimmers and other card 'enhancers' were caught manipulating cards to bump their grades and therefore increasing the prices they brought on the open market, sometimes by orders of magnitude. Many of these people have been called out by name and more continue to be discovered. This has cast a shadow on many, if not all, high grade slabbed cards. Including everything from tobacco cards to the glossy inserts of today.

3. PWCC and other sellers have been accused of conspiring/enabling/turning a blind eye to these card doctors and bringing their wares to market. They typical response is denial of fore-knowledge, however I believe some refunds have been issued in response to legal pressure.

4. The TPGs have been accused of either complete incompetence in their ability to detect altered cards (at best) or of conspiring with certain known submitters to look the other way (at worst) when grading cards from certain folks. Proof of the card alterations (and the submitters) has been called out and shown by BODA (Blowout Detection Agency) too many times to count. None of the TPGs have taken any responsibility for these actions.

5. The TPGs have been accused of favorable treatment of certain high volume submitters in assigning or revisiting grades to certain cards. This is completely different than the item above which deals with altered cards. PSA even advertises that they offer opportunities for certain folks to 'discuss' the grading of cards that they have submitted. No response from the TPGs on this favoritism charge.

6. And of course the on-going charges of shill bidding and phantom sales continue to manipulate market prices, propping up card prices and leading us closer to a market collapse.

Other than that, nothing to see here. Move along.

Did I miss anything?

Yeah, In a nutshell it's a Billion Dollar Fraud. Enjoy getting your balls kicked in. I've been beat like a red headed step child with all my fakes and everyone here is a victim.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Yeah, In a nutshell it's a Billion Dollar Fraud. Enjoy getting your balls kicked in. I've been beat like a red headed step child with all my fakes and everyone here is a victim.

a billion dollar fraud but for whatever reason no lawsuits....any other billion dollar frauds with no lawsuits?

[swarmee]

There is a lawsuit between Leaf and Upper Deck which brought in BGS grading improprieties into the discussion. Joe Clemons was called to testify about whether or not he was receiving improper grades from BGS for Leaf, I believe.

[bmcnutt]

This research & work should be "published". This is a phenomenal piece. I can't believe the FBI/Federal Investigators continue to standby & let these turd cutters get away with this. I've always felt that card grading has ruin the hobby. Back in the day, if you had a NR/MT 1963 Topps Mickey Mantle that booked for $600.00, you paid no more than $600.00. I wish there were only reputable entities that did card authentication.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bmcnutt

This research & work should be "published". This is a phenomenal piece. I can't believe the FBI/Federal Investigators continue to standby & let these turd cutters get away with this. I've always felt that card grading has ruin the hobby. Back in the day, if you had a NR/MT 1963 Topps Mickey Mantle that booked for $600.00, you paid no more than $600.00. I wish there were only reputable entities that did card authentication.

Nothing personal but this is sort of an ignorant statement. Haven't you read the many, many threads, which have stated unequivocally, there is a formal investigation going on by the FBI?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Leon

Nothing personal but this is sort of an ignorant statement. Haven't you read the many, many threads, which have stated unequivocally, there is a formal investigation going on by the FBI?

I think he might just be frustrated that these Dealers and TPGs continue to do business as usual (and rake in money, from mostly unsuspecting victims) while the investigation transpires. It's as if nothing has changed, despite the tens of thousands of altered cards revealed in numbered PSA holders.

All entities are still seemingly thriving (for now, anyway). Patience is a virtue … but is difficult for those of us who are eager to see industry fraud and corruption cleaned up.

[Ben Yourg]

So,let's say I buy a Raw card,and it's worth a few dollars.It looks
real nice,and the same under magnification.
Now,I know it will make a better presentation,and will be
protected better,if I have it graded.
If the grade is way different,than my opinion,would I regrade,
or break it out,and leave it raw?
After hearing opinions here, on grading companies,raw seems best.
I've known a top notch Dealer-Collector,for years.And,he has never
liked graded cards.And refuses,to deal with them.
He does not like to have someone ,sometimes,say he is wrong?
And then that card is sort of "Branded",by perhaps a young
person,who has worked,grading cards 6 months.
So,if you're looking at the card,and in your opinion it's VG/EX,
it's VG/EX.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by bmcnutt;1944274/

Back in the day, if you had a NR/MT 1963 Topps Mickey Mantle that booked for $600.00, you paid no more than $600.00.

I'm not sure what you mean specifically by "back in the day", but I would not agree with this statement. Even back in the late 80's, when Beckett was king - it was understood that there was a high column and a low column, and explicitly stated that for year ranges in their price guides, some cards that were truly above "NM" condition could command higher prices than even the "high" column reported. I saw dealers back then do that frequently with choice / cherry examples of certain cards (some no doubt altered...) without regard to the high "book" prices. Not saying they always got the higher price, but I know of more than a few that occasionally did.

[jchcollins]

At a very high level:

* The scandal has proven some of our worst fears about TPG's true - that in many cases they were not up to the task of knowing what they should know about how to detect altered cards, that in many cases they were at least susceptible to improper influence from their largest customers, and that in many cases the "professional" in professional grading was just a marketing term.

At it's best, professional grading at first helped to consolidate standards and make it easier to buy a card in a certain "range" sight unseen with a greater chance that the card you received in the mail would be somewhat what you expected that you had ordered. But at a foundation level, even when done correctly, the model for professional grading which exists today reaches a point of inconsistency due to the subjectivity inherent in the process which has not been able to be overcome. At some point, the precision of professional grading is fraud, because it's been proven anew what many knew all along: There is no magic. It's just an opinion. It's just one opinion. And the standard for that opinion may be different today than it was yesterday on the same card, or even one like it that comes into their queue a mere 5 minutes later.

The collector's own opinion and evaluation of the authenticity and condition of the piece in question is in the end what really matters, and what we have to get back to with additional eduction.

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I'm not sure what you mean specifically by "back in the day", but I would not agree with this statement. Even back in the late 80's, when Beckett was king - it was understood that there was a high column and a low column, and explicitly stated that for year ranges in their price guides, some cards that were truly above "NM" condition could command higher prices than even the "high" column reported. I saw dealers back then do that frequently with choice / cherry examples of certain cards (some no doubt altered...) without regard to the high "book" prices. Not saying they always got the higher price, but I know of more than a few that occasionally did.

I still remember the 2 cards I bought at a card show that were "superior examples"...I paid 350.00 for a '61 Aaron (years later graded SGC 92) the "Beckett" was like 120-160 in NM condition. That same day, I bought a 1950 Bowman Campanella for 600.00 (later graded PSA 9) that booked for 150-190 in NM condition.
Oddly, neither of those cards has moved much in raw NM form in the past 30 years since I bought 'em!

[drcy]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

a billion dollar fraud but for whatever reason no lawsuits....any other billion dollar frauds with no lawsuits?

How do you know there have been no lawsuits?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by drcy

How do you know there have been no lawsuits?

i dont, as i have said before correct me if i an wrong. I assume someone on blowout or somewhere else would of mentioned it. lawsuits are not secrets they are in public view

[KLSDAD]

Could somebody nutshell a who's who? Both here and (mainly) at Blowout alot of the conversation assumes that everyone is up on all the players.

Just a quick summary like...

Grading companies and each's main offenses
Grading company execs/management in the spotlight
Grading company whistleblowers
Offline auction companies and execs
Online auction companies/screennames
Sellers linked to shady auction companies
Alleged trimmers
Blowout whitleblowers

Hmmm....looks like alot of work. Then I see a gazillion posts on message boards (mainly at Blowout) and think that maybe some effort could be redirected.

[swarmee]

PSA (Joe Orlando / Steve Sloan): Either horribly incompetent at detecting alterations or partially incompetent and partially complicit in fraud, giving favored submitters higher grades than regular Joes or passing through altered cards as unaltered to keep the submissions rolling in.
BGS: Incompetent at detecting trimming on modern cards; have been giving favored submitters like Leaf and Joe Clemons (former BGS employee) an impossible number of BGS 10 (Pristines and Black Labels with all 4 BGS 10 subgrades). These sell for like 5x what a Gem Mint 9.5 card sells for on the same modern cards.
SGC: Graded some very high value trimmed or recolored cards with numbers at the National Convention (like $50K each) that were outed, plus were heavily used by OCSI to grade trimmed cards. Not used as often on modern since their resale value is much lower than PSA or BGS. Also closed their autograph authentication wing after they agreed with JSA that 12 Sharpie signed T206 cards were outed as counterfeits and slabbed them as Authentic. Those sold for thousands apiece.

As of now, not many internal whistleblowers, but many high submitters who attended the BGS or PSA annual meetings have been outed as card alterers.

Small Traditions is probably the biggest auctionhouse who have been outed as trimming the heck out of cards, but it's highly likely there are others. Paper trails are smaller with auctionhouses because of their secret consignors and kind of invisible employees.

PWCC (Brent Huigens) is well-known already.

COMC had some former employees accused of trimming and selling through COMC, and some of their largest sellers were outed as trimmers. COMC is trying to buy back the cards that have been outed and their owner Tim Getsch has promised to write some code to detect trimming on cards in their scans. Refunds are super slow going since they only have a small team working the refunds, and that same team is supposedly also working their rollout of eBay auctions.

Check the www.sportscardradio.com site to see many of the accusers trimmers and other scammers currently operating in the hobby.

[Bram99]

Hello,

Has anyone created a document version (excel or Word possibly) of all of the suspect altered/trimmed cards from the various Blowout forum and other listings? It seems extremely difficult to wade through all of these forum pages to find such a listing. I am looking for something easily searchable.

Tony

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

a billion dollar fraud but for whatever reason no lawsuits....any other billion dollar frauds with no lawsuits?

Not that I know of which makes this scam all the more remarkable

[SAllen2556]

I would really be interested to know what the multi-millionaire class of collectors thinks about all this. (I may be naive, but I assume most millionaires are pretty bright people) Do the majority even know? It's got to be a bit disheartening to know you've spent a million bucks on stuff and it turns out you've been shilled at auction, you've likely purchased altered cards, and you've generally supported a criminal class of scum bags with your money.

At what point do the negatives of collecting outweigh the positives? How long will this type of collector go on risking large sums of money in such a fraudulent hobby? It certainly seems like you can't trust any dealer, auction house, or even the supposedly impartial grading companies. I just can't imagine spending 5 figures on a card these days without feeling like an idiot.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

I would really be interested to know what the multi-millionaire class of collectors thinks about all this. (I may be naive, but I assume most millionaires are pretty bright people) Do the majority even know? It's got to be a bit disheartening to know you've spent a million bucks on stuff and it turns out you've been shilled at auction, you've likely purchased altered cards, and you've generally supported a criminal class of scum bags with your money.

At what point do the negatives of collecting outweigh the positives? How long will this type of collector go on risking large sums of money in such a fraudulent hobby? It certainly seems like you can't trust any dealer, auction house, or even the supposedly impartial grading companies. I just can't imagine spending 5 figures on a card these days without feeling like an idiot.

I'm a "millionaire class" collector. You know what I think.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

I'm a "millionaire class" collector. You know what I think.

C'mon, Chuck, we know you have no class...

I kid you my friend.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

C'mon, Chuck, we know you have no class...

I kid you my friend.

So true...

[japhi]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

I would really be interested to know what the multi-millionaire class of collectors thinks about all this. (I may be naive, but I assume most millionaires are pretty bright people) Do the majority even know? It's got to be a bit disheartening to know you've spent a million bucks on stuff and it turns out you've been shilled at auction, you've likely purchased altered cards, and you've generally supported a criminal class of scum bags with your money.

At what point do the negatives of collecting outweigh the positives? How long will this type of collector go on risking large sums of money in such a fraudulent hobby? It certainly seems like you can't trust any dealer, auction house, or even the supposedly impartial grading companies. I just can't imagine spending 5 figures on a card these days without feeling like an idiot.

I’m not sure they care tbh.

There is one collector that got taken, and frankly embarrassed, on a few of the more high profile outed cards. He continues to acquirer, and post on forums high end graded cards. A few of the modern ones he buys are known to be targets of trimmers and look ridiculously short. I also suspect he is still buying from PWCC, where two of the more high profile cards came from, and the dealer was part of the deception.

I think for a lot of these high end collectors it’s about having and showing off the “best” stuff. Such a strange hobby.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by japhi

I’m not sure they care tbh.


I think for a lot of these high end collectors it’s about having and showing off the “best” stuff. Such a strange hobby.

so his 'best' stuff is trimmed...not exactly best stuff to me

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by japhi

I’m not sure they care tbh.

There is one collector that got taken, and frankly embarrassed, on a few of the more high profile outed cards. He continues to acquirer, and post on forums high end graded cards. A few of the modern ones he buys are known to be targets of trimmers and look ridiculously short. I also suspect he is still buying from PWCC, where two of the more high profile cards came from, and the dealer was part of the deception.

I think for a lot of these high end collectors it’s about having and showing off the “best” stuff. Such a strange hobby.

I don't know if it is the same person but I have seen one buyer(sucker/mark/moron) that has done the same. Not only did they let the scammers line up and sell him expensive altered cards. He still sticks up for the shady sellers. Like they say it takes all kinds.