"Grading Scandal" in a nutshell, please

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I have never once heard that before. I do know many examples of the exact opposite. I even had a guy 2 days ago when discussing altered vs 1 grades say his Old Judge card was graded Authentic by SGC but after cracking it out sent it to PSA and got a 1 grade.

I do agree that all companies slabs have altered cards in them.

Agreed Ben...not sure who "they" is who supposedly says "this?"

From my personal experience...on 2 occasions SGC rejected twice as A...PSA gave numbers.

[seff]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Agreed Ben...not sure who "they" is who supposedly says "this?"

From my personal experience...on 2 occasions SGC rejected twice as A...PSA gave numbers.

I hear this from all over the place. SGC/Beckett also gives higher grades than PSA. I've cracked slabs and crossed over raw. PSA always grades harsher. Hence, higher value.

[irv]

Originally Posted by dseff

I hear this from all over the place. SGC/Beckett also gives higher grades than PSA. I've cracked slabs and crossed over raw. PSA always grades harsher. Hence, higher value.

There are 3 possibilities here?

Either someone is feeding you a pile of B.S., you have PSA cards that you are trying to protect the value of or your a PSA troll?

Not a chance PSA grades harsher than SGC. That one is easily debunked just by checking out graded cards on ebay, here, or Blowout.

[swarmee]

Depends on the set, or the type of alteration. PSA is well known for rejecting cards for minsiz or sheet cut (when they detect it) or stored for years in a screwdown holder (shows signs of pressing at the corners which can also hide spooned out creases). Those same cards will regularly get number grades from Beckett and SGC.

The Buster guy has regularly complained about crossing SGC 88 (NM-MT 8) cards to PSA and how few actually cross.

But then there are thousands of trimmed cards that have cleared PSA and they regularly miss writing, added coloring, or erasures on cards which should be seen and given either MK or Altered designations instead of straight/unqualified numbers. Look at the most recent PSA 9 1969 Roberto Clemente's right edge:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=835 How did that card get into a PSA 9 holder honestly?

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by dseff

I hear this from all over the place. SGC/Beckett also gives higher grades than PSA. I've cracked slabs and crossed over raw. PSA always grades harsher. Hence, higher value.

Originally Posted by swarmee

Depends on the set, or the type of alteration. PSA is well known for rejecting cards for minsiz or sheet cut (when they detect it) or stored for years in a screwdown holder (shows signs of pressing at the corners which can also hide spooned out creases). Those same cards will regularly get number grades from Beckett and SGC.

But then there are thousands of trimmed cards that have cleared PSA and they regularly miss writing, added coloring, or erasures on cards which should be seen and given either MK or Altered designations instead of straight/unqualified numbers. Look at the most recent PSA 9 1969 Roberto Clemente's right edge:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=835 How did that card get into a PSA 9 holder honestly?

Wow. That's really bad. Hard to make a viable excuse for that.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by dseff

I hear this from all over the place. SGC/Beckett also gives higher grades than PSA. I've cracked slabs and crossed over raw. PSA always grades harsher. Hence, higher value.

You’re Clueless with a capital C!

A lemming with a capital L!

A sheeple with a capital S!

Baaaaaaaaaaah!

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by dseff

I hear this from all over the place. SGC/Beckett also gives higher grades than PSA. I've cracked slabs and crossed over raw. PSA always grades harsher. Hence, higher value.

Hello Dave. I don't know you but cannot say with more certainty that you are incorrect. Dreadfully and alarmingly so. I could soften it by saying the good 'ol, "everyone's experiences may differ, and may even be relative to what they collect?" Big picture, however, your assertion is pure folly.

I could elaborate but it would sound harsh in written form. If we were in person, I would be speaking in an apologetic tone--not attacking.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Phil68

Hello Dave. I don't know you but cannot say with more certainty that you are incorrect. Dreadfully and alarmingly so. I could soften it by saying the good 'ol, "everyone's experiences may differ, and may even be relative to what they collect?" Big picture, however, your assertion is pure folly.

I could elaborate but it would sound harsh in written form. If we were in person, I would be speaking in an apologetic tone--not attacking.

+1 I didn’t wanna say it in a way the sounded rude.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Phil68

Hello Dave. I don't know you but cannot say with more certainty that you are incorrect. Dreadfully and alarmingly so. I could soften it by saying the good 'ol, "everyone's experiences may differ, and may even be relative to what they collect?" Big picture, however, your assertion is pure folly.

I could elaborate but it would sound harsh in written form. If we were in person, I would be speaking in an apologetic tone--not attacking.

I am told that is one of my biggest problems on here. I come off as a A-Hole when calling out the shady stuff in the hobby. When in reality I am a very nice generous person.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I am told that is one of my biggest problems on here. I come off as a A-Hole when calling out the shady stuff in the hobby. When in reality I am a very nice generous person.

Me3!

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I am told that is one of my biggest problems on here. I come off as a A-Hole when calling out the shady stuff in the hobby. When in reality I am a very nice generous person.

For what it's worth, you seem just fine to me! Maybe someone will come up with a tone acronym. For now, I'll just write my intentions. I've been grossly misunderstood before--years ago--while writing. My inner circle knew exactly how to interpret me...my new "friends" on a discussion board did not. Once people think you're a tool--they don't give you the benefit of the doubt. A good hatred is much more fun and they pile on, Lol.

[Bigdaddy]

Back to the OP's question and reaching back to the recent signed T206 fiasco. I'll use 'TPGs' in general, referring to any of the three letter companies we all know:

1. The TPGs were shown to have negligently certified many signed T206 and other pre-war cards that were proven to have existed in an unsigned condition in the recent past. I do not know of any resolution to this so far other than SGC folding their autograph authentication business.

2. Card trimmers and other card 'enhancers' were caught manipulating cards to bump their grades and therefore increasing the prices they brought on the open market, sometimes by orders of magnitude. Many of these people have been called out by name and more continue to be discovered. This has cast a shadow on many, if not all, high grade slabbed cards. Including everything from tobacco cards to the glossy inserts of today.

3. PWCC and other sellers have been accused of conspiring/enabling/turning a blind eye to these card doctors and bringing their wares to market. They typical response is denial of fore-knowledge, however I believe some refunds have been issued in response to legal pressure.

4. The TPGs have been accused of either complete incompetence in their ability to detect altered cards (at best) or of conspiring with certain known submitters to look the other way (at worst) when grading cards from certain folks. Proof of the card alterations (and the submitters) has been called out and shown by BODA (Blowout Detection Agency) too many times to count. None of the TPGs have taken any responsibility for these actions.

5. The TPGs have been accused of favorable treatment of certain high volume submitters in assigning or revisiting grades to certain cards. This is completely different than the item above which deals with altered cards. PSA even advertises that they offer opportunities for certain folks to 'discuss' the grading of cards that they have submitted. No response from the TPGs on this favoritism charge.

6. And of course the on-going charges of shill bidding and phantom sales continue to manipulate market prices, propping up card prices and leading us closer to a market collapse.

Other than that, nothing to see here. Move along.

Did I miss anything?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Back to the OP's question and reaching back to the recent signed T206 fiasco. I'll use 'TPGs' in general, referring to any of the three letter companies we all know:

1. The TPGs were shown to have negligently certified many signed T206 and other pre-war cards that were proven to have existed in an unsigned condition in the recent past. I do not know of any resolution to this so far other than SGC folding their autograph authentication business.

2. Card trimmers and other card 'enhancers' were caught manipulating cards to bump their grades and therefore increasing the prices they brought on the open market, sometimes by orders of magnitude. Many of these people have been called out by name and more continue to be discovered. This has cast a shadow on many, if not all, high grade slabbed cards. Including everything from tobacco cards to the glossy inserts of today.

3. PWCC and other sellers have been accused of conspiring/enabling/turning a blind eye to these card doctors and bringing their wares to market. They typical response is denial of fore-knowledge, however I believe some refunds have been issued in response to legal pressure.

4. The TPGs have been accused of either complete incompetence in their ability to detect altered cards (at best) or of conspiring with certain known submitters to look the other way (at worst) when grading cards from certain folks. Proof of the card alterations (and the submitters) has been called out and shown by BODA (Blowout Detection Agency) too many times to count. None of the TPGs have taken any responsibility for these actions.

5. The TPGs have been accused of favorable treatment of certain high volume submitters in assigning or revisiting grades to certain cards. This is completely different than the item above which deals with altered cards. PSA even advertises that they offer opportunities for certain folks to 'discuss' the grading of cards that they have submitted. No response from the TPGs on this favoritism charge.

6. And of course the on-going charges of shill bidding and phantom sales continue to manipulate market prices, propping up card prices and leading us closer to a market collapse.

Other than that, nothing to see here. Move along.

Did I miss anything?

Beautiful Synopsis Nail Hit Directly on the Head.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Back to the OP's question and reaching back to the recent signed T206 fiasco. I'll use 'TPGs' in general, referring to any of the three letter companies we all know:

1. The TPGs were shown to have negligently certified many signed T206 and other pre-war cards that were proven to have existed in an unsigned condition in the recent past. I do not know of any resolution to this so far other than SGC folding their autograph authentication business.

2. Card trimmers and other card 'enhancers' were caught manipulating cards to bump their grades and therefore increasing the prices they brought on the open market, sometimes by orders of magnitude. Many of these people have been called out by name and more continue to be discovered. This has cast a shadow on many, if not all, high grade slabbed cards. Including everything from tobacco cards to the glossy inserts of today.

3. PWCC and other sellers have been accused of conspiring/enabling/turning a blind eye to these card doctors and bringing their wares to market. They typical response is denial of fore-knowledge, however I believe some refunds have been issued in response to legal pressure.

4. The TPGs have been accused of either complete incompetence in their ability to detect altered cards (at best) or of conspiring with certain known submitters to look the other way (at worst) when grading cards from certain folks. Proof of the card alterations (and the submitters) has been called out and shown by BODA (Blowout Detection Agency) too many times to count. None of the TPGs have taken any responsibility for these actions.

5. The TPGs have been accused of favorable treatment of certain high volume submitters in assigning or revisiting grades to certain cards. This is completely different than the item above which deals with altered cards. PSA even advertises that they offer opportunities for certain folks to 'discuss' the grading of cards that they have submitted. No response from the TPGs on this favoritism charge.

6. And of course the on-going charges of shill bidding and phantom sales continue to manipulate market prices, propping up card prices and leading us closer to a market collapse.

Other than that, nothing to see here. Move along.

Did I miss anything?

Yeah, In a nutshell it's a Billion Dollar Fraud. Enjoy getting your balls kicked in. I've been beat like a red headed step child with all my fakes and everyone here is a victim.

[SAllen2556]

I would really be interested to know what the multi-millionaire class of collectors thinks about all this. (I may be naive, but I assume most millionaires are pretty bright people) Do the majority even know? It's got to be a bit disheartening to know you've spent a million bucks on stuff and it turns out you've been shilled at auction, you've likely purchased altered cards, and you've generally supported a criminal class of scum bags with your money.

At what point do the negatives of collecting outweigh the positives? How long will this type of collector go on risking large sums of money in such a fraudulent hobby? It certainly seems like you can't trust any dealer, auction house, or even the supposedly impartial grading companies. I just can't imagine spending 5 figures on a card these days without feeling like an idiot.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I am told that is one of my biggest problems on here. I come off as a A-Hole when calling out the shady stuff in the hobby. When in reality I am a very nice generous person.

I have the opposite problem (Shhhhhh!!!)

[1952boyntoncollector]

Also zero lawsuits thus far even though hundreds of thousands of dollars of altered cards have been uncovered and going on a year.....correct me if i am wrong

thus, people must still be satisfied on whatever recourse they are getting without a lawsuit thus far..

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Also zero lawsuits thus far even though hundreds of thousands of dollars of altered cards have been uncovered and going on a year.....correct me if i am wrong

thus, people must still be satisfied on whatever recourse they are getting without a lawsuit thus far..

Sorry, but one does not beget the other. You cannot assume that because a client does not sue means they are happy with the experience.

I am absolutely pi$$ed with an auction house at the moment on a consignment issue. Been fighting with them for almost three years. The amount (approx. $1000) is not worth suing over. However, I will be formally documenting the issue in an upcoming post, and on a new website I am building.

My $1000 item is now essentially worthless because of their neglect and incompetence, but I am not getting a lawyer and suing them. You cannot equate one with the other.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Also zero lawsuits thus far even though hundreds of thousands of dollars of altered cards have been uncovered and going on a year.....correct me if i am wrong

thus, people must still be satisfied on whatever recourse they are getting without a lawsuit thus far..

Arguably as stupid/naive a comment as has ever been posted on this Board.

[Frank A]

Originally Posted by dseff

I hear this from all over the place. SGC/Beckett also gives higher grades than PSA. I've cracked slabs and crossed over raw. PSA always grades harsher. Hence, higher value.

Where did you come up with that fantasy?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by dseff

I hear this from all over the place. SGC/Beckett also gives higher grades than PSA. I've cracked slabs and crossed over raw. PSA always grades harsher. Hence, higher value.

All just opinions.

[Exhibitman]

In a nutshell:

This is a card:



This is grading a card:



Any questions?