If You Started A Grading/Authentication service today...

[familytoad]

I'd start with the basic customer service model.
What do the customers actually want from such a product?

It's becoming easy to list what they DON'T want, which is much of what they are getting.

Here's a list off the top of my head on what a new service would need to provide:

• Impartiality.
• Intelligence on the market conditions.
• Integrity.
• Fair,consistent grading no matter who the submitter is.
• Solid, secure,attractive holders. Reasonable font size.
• Population reports with full data on variations etc
• Registry sets, easy way to register them with ownership changes.
• Reasonable wait times.
• Responsive, interactive service with submitters
• Some Hobby altruism to ensure the life cycle of their product and the hobby itself
• More integrity.

[conor912]

I wouldn’t grade. I’d authenticate and slab and let collectors decide for themselves what grade it is.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by conor912

I wouldn’t grade. I’d authenticate and slab and let collectors decide for themselves what grade it is.

I would also have a thinner and smaller slab so that having a complete graded set wouldn’t be an albatross.

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by conor912

I would also have a thinner and smaller slab so that having a complete graded set wouldn’t be an albatross.

I hear you there...

I have personally experimented with various molds and a holder really cannot be made smaller than PSA's without getting to the brink of compromising strength. Beckett, SGC and PSA have done a great job designing their holders (kills me to give any credit there, but they earned it). You could, perhaps, take up to 1/16" on each side which would give you almost .13" smaller both ways and still maintain a workable ultrasonic seal and still be able to holder '52-'56 and smaller (using an insert).

Each mold and horn you make requires a pretty hefty investment. Truth is, a workable new holder would look pretty different than what folks are used to and actually be a touch BIGGER. Not huge, but bigger. Each would be a virtual art presentation.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by Phil68

I hear you there...

I have personally experimented with various molds and a holder really cannot be made smaller than PSA's without getting to the brink of compromising strength. Beckett, SGC and PSA have done a great job designing their holders (kills me to give any credit there, but they earned it). You could, perhaps, take up to 1/16" on each side which would give you almost .13" smaller both ways and still maintain a workable ultrasonic seal and still be able to holder '52-'56 and smaller (using an insert).

Each mold and horn you make requires a pretty hefty investment. Truth is, a workable new holder would look pretty different than what folks are used to and actually be a touch BIGGER. Not huge, but bigger. Each would be a virtual art presentation.

Try using a different material for making the slabs and get away from the idea of an ultrasonic sealer. There IS a material and A WAY to seal it that will revolutionize the grading industry but you have to find it if you are planning to use it. Waterproof, UV blocker, flame retardant to over 600 degrees, unbreakable, and once sealed would require a band saw to open. The molds would require heating the sheet and press molding it so no injection molds. Could be done in your garage if you had the right stuff.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Phil68

I hear you there...

I have personally experimented with various molds and a holder really cannot be made smaller than PSA's without getting to the brink of compromising strength. Beckett, SGC and PSA have done a great job designing their holders (kills me to give any credit there, but they earned it). You could, perhaps, take up to 1/16" on each side which would give you almost .13" smaller both ways and still maintain a workable ultrasonic seal and still be able to holder '52-'56 and smaller (using an insert).

Each mold and horn you make requires a pretty hefty investment. Truth is, a workable new holder would look pretty different than what folks are used to and actually be a touch BIGGER. Not huge, but bigger. Each would be a virtual art presentation.

I guess I was thinking more about thickness than anything else. I don’t see why we can have a “slab” that’s basically a top loader with a gasket and the 4th side sealed shut. Yes it would need to be taller to accommodate some sort of flip and no it would not be as strong, but I’ve honestly never once felt like I needed more protection than a top loader. Maybe some guys toss their cards down flights of stairs....I don’t know.

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by conor912

I guess I was thinking more about thickness than anything else. I don’t see why we can have a “slab” that’s basically a top loader with a gasket and the 4th side sealed shut. Yes it would need to be taller to accommodate some sort of flip and no it would not be as strong, but I’ve honestly never once felt like I needed more protection than a top loader. Maybe some guys toss their cards down flights of stairs....I don’t know.

I like it. The cards would still display really nicely and take up far less room. The Mylar insert would be key. Paper collectibles do require more long term protection than the plastic coffins.

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by conor912

I guess I was thinking more about thickness than anything else. I don’t see why we can have a “slab” that’s basically a top loader with a gasket and the 4th side sealed shut. Yes it would need to be taller to accommodate some sort of flip and no it would not be as strong, but I’ve honestly never once felt like I needed more protection than a top loader. Maybe some guys toss their cards down flights of stairs....I don’t know.

I'll be right back...I have to do my daily card toss down the stairs...tomorrow I have a roof drop scheduled--should be interesting

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by conor912

I guess I was thinking more about thickness than anything else. I don’t see why we can have a “slab” that’s basically a top loader with a gasket and the 4th side sealed shut. Yes it would need to be taller to accommodate some sort of flip and no it would not be as strong, but I’ve honestly never once felt like I needed more protection than a top loader. Maybe some guys toss their cards down flights of stairs....I don’t know.

There is no grading involved but post 13 in this thread has something like what you are describing. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=276726

Then if you want grading there is this. I have not seen one of their graded cards in a while. It used to be the sleeve you send cards to PSA in with a sticker across the top. They don't get the premium PSA does but there is NO WAY IN HELL they could do a worse job at grading. http://www.verisleeve.com/

EDIT: I have a complete SGC graded set and they do take up WAY too much space. I think if a honest grading company used a smaller version of what is posted in the first link it would be a giant improvement over the thick slabs that are offered now.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I have a complete SGC graded set and they do take up WAY too much space. I think if a honest grading company used a smaller version of what is posted in the first link it would be a giant improvement over the thick slabs that are offered now.

Yeah....that’s way more gasket than I had in mind, but it’s certainly close otherwise!

[Fred]

It's almost as if "regulation" of TPGs should be required.

Ensure graders are trained and know what they're looking at.

Only allow highly qualified graders to assess high value cards. These highly qualified graders would "register" as an expert and be provided with a "grader ID" number.

The graders name would remain anonymous in the event some type of legal assessment was being weighed. At least the collecting public could see a pattern if one were to emerge with a specific grader. It also adds a little credibility to the TPG. The thought is that if the TPG has to keep things transparent then having people accountable may actually produce a more "realistic" TPG that is actually not associated with "sales" or potential sales.

Kind of hard to believe there isn't something going on today with all the crap we've seen in the past few years.

Bottom line, there needs to be accountability in the TPGs.

[1952boyntoncollector]

i'd have a card database (owner registry) so the same card couldnt be sold on the market if a person can verify if the serial number is already owned by someone else who isnt selling it...also avoids fraud...

id also have a a 'best of the best' card award...

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by conor912

I wouldn’t grade. I’d authenticate and slab and let collectors decide for themselves what grade it is.

The only grades would be authentic or not authentic.

[drcy]

Make sure it is never a publically traded company, so stock prices et al are never a part of the grading and authenticating and information process.

It should be a non-profit group (Which does not mean graders and workers don't get paid a fair salary and that money can't be invested back into the system).

It should have an outside board of directors who are concerned with the authentication and grading accuracy and process and how to disseminate that information to the public, not stock prices.

It should be treated as an academic endeavor. It should not be an "investment insurance" company.

I think it should stick to authentication (including alteration detection), and provide quality high-grade images for provenance, quality control and so people can grade fo themselves.

* * * *

I am not against a current board of experts being made to give opinions on the state of grading in the hobby. The hobby should start one right now, maybe something through SABR which is a well-known and respect non-profit academic group.

[JollyElm]

I would make every inch of the slab pitch black, 100% opaque, except for the label. Then the card itself wouldn't matter at all, just the number put on the holder...as it should be.

psalabelblack.jpg

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I would make every inch of the slab pitch black, 100% opaque, except for the label. Then the card itself wouldn't matter at all, just the number put on the holder...as it should be.

Attachment 378339

This would work great till the first person wanted to crack and resubmit. The slabs are all empty and the company(LLC) closed its doors. Everyone is living the life of luxury in country without a extradition treaty with the US.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by bnorth

This would work great till the first person wanted to crack and resubmit. The slabs are all empty and the company(LLC) closed its doors. Everyone is living the life of luxury in country without a extradition treaty with the US.

Oh, did I forget to mention, the labels are actually in pencil. There is no cracking and resubmitting. You just erase the number and add whatever you want it to say there. No examination of the card is ever necessary. It's the perfect grading solution.

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by drcy

Make sure it is never a publically traded company, so stock prices et al are never a part of the grading and authenticating and information process.

It should be a non-profit group (Which does not mean graders and workers don't get paid a fair salary and that money can't be invested back into the system).

It should have an outside board of directors who are concerned with the authentication and grading accuracy and process and how to disseminate that information to the public, not stock prices.

It should be treated as an academic endeavor. It should not be an "investment insurance" company.

I think it should stick to authentication (including alteration detection), and provide quality high-grade images for provenance, quality control and so people can grade fo themselves.

* * * *

I am not against a current board of experts being made to give opinions on the state of grading in the hobby. The hobby should start one right now, maybe something through SABR which is a well-known and respect non-profit academic group.

This is most in-line with my thoughts.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by buymycards

The only grades would be authentic or not authentic.

I think there should be 2 grades:
Authentic / Counterfeit
Original / Altered

Then a brief description of any alterations on the back label such as:

Recolored
Trimmed
Corners

[Phil68]

I saw where PSA took this exact thread down after one reply. What did I miss? Has that whole company lost its collective mind? I haven't been on community message boards for awhile but if you can't discuss what collectors value on a collector chatboard...what, exactly, should one discuss? I would think they would watch that thread like a hawk and respond to the needs/wants of their customers where it's possible...maybe even engage in responses of why something isn't feasible, etc.
The moderator said it could "get ugly"?

If I asked "How does everyone like their Italian beef?" on a sandwich shop board and they closed the question, I'd wonder what the heck I was eating, Lol.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Phil68

I saw where PSA took this exact thread down after one reply. What did I miss? Has that whole company lost its collective mind? I haven't been on community message boards for awhile but if you can't discuss what collectors value on a collector chatboard...what, exactly, should one discuss? I would think they would watch that thread like a hawk and respond to the needs/wants of their customers where it's possible...maybe even engage in responses of why something isn't feasible, etc.
The moderator said it could "get ugly"?

If I asked "How does everyone like their Italian beef?" on a sandwich shop board and they closed the question, I'd wonder what the heck I was eating, Lol.

So corrupt. Josef Stalin would run a more informative, more communicative and better forum than those corporate criminals.

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by perezfan

So corrupt. Josef Stalin would run a more informative, more communicative and better forum than those corporate criminals.

While I don't know enough about potential criminal activity, I can say they are dreadfully inconsistent and lack communication skills. The criminal stuff I'm just getting educated about since joining this forum.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Phil68

I saw where PSA took this exact thread down after one reply. What did I miss? Has that whole company lost its collective mind? I haven't been on community message boards for awhile but if you can't discuss what collectors value on a collector chatboard...what, exactly, should one discuss? I would think they would watch that thread like a hawk and respond to the needs/wants of their customers where it's possible...maybe even engage in responses of why something isn't feasible, etc.
The moderator said it could "get ugly"?

You missed that PSA is actively trying to sweep the entire grading scandal of 2019 under the rug. So your post implying that a different grading company should come into being is something I would have easily expected to get you banned from their website. Consider yourself lucky you just got your post locked. PSA doesn't want your suggestions; they just want your cash.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by swarmee

You missed that PSA is actively trying to sweep the entire grading scandal of 2019 under the rug. So your post implying that a different grading company should come into being is something I would have easily expected to get you banned from their website. Consider yourself lucky you just got your post locked. PSA doesn't want your suggestions; they just want your cash.

But why would anyone remotely want to participate in any forum in which thoughtful/insightful posts are censored, and honest people with good intentions are banned?

Come on, Sheeple!!

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I think there should be 2 grades:
Authentic / Counterfeit
Original / Altered

Then a brief description of any alterations on the back label such as:

Recolored
Trimmed
Corners

This is what I’d like to happen as well. But the grading company must actually know how to detect and assess alteration, and do it with 100% impartiality. A far cry from what we have now.

Number grades are purely subjective, and only lead to fraud and corruption. They feed the egos that fuel the worst attributes within our hobby. And who needs a 3rd party to assess a number grade anyway? It’s the collector’s damn property - not theirs. So just confirm the authenticity, then let US determine the aesthetics. People are way too hypnotized and conditioned to believe a number is a necessity.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by perezfan

But the grading company must actually know how to detect and assess alteration, and do it with 100% impartiality. A far cry from what we have now.
.

People grading are not invested in the hobby like we are. Its a job for someone, and has high turnover. They don't care about anything except hitting the production numbers required. If there was a company that could start out and afford knowledgeable people then it could be different. Problem is I would not give up my income, I am sure this applies to others as well, for a $25-35K a year job grading other peoples cards. Its not lucrative!

If there were 4-5 investors that put in the time and money, $150,000-250,000 each, for a program and new slabbing techniques then maybe we could have a revolution in the hobby and make significant changes for the betterment of all collectors. Transparency is a must so staying away from possible employees that have TPG ties with other companies is pertinent to survival. Ex: "Joe works for TBD Grading over the last 5 years. Some shady dealing have been tied to the company for some time. He now wants to come join the new TPG company." I can tell you from what I know that this has not worked out the best for those people or the TPD companies that have started like this.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Dumb question. Coins is a much older market, and has been grading longer. Did they ever undergo a similar scandal/issue? Did they get through it? I guess it's harder to "trim" a coin, but I know there are lots of things done to improve their appearance.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I think there should be 2 grades:
Authentic / Counterfeit
Original / Altered

Then a brief description of any alterations on the back label such as:

Recolored
Trimmed
Corners

I would like a tpg like this, but I doubt the people with a Jeter rookie would like it. Am I wrong that a 7 sells for $250 and a 10 sells for $166,000. Maybe I missed it, and the 10 is some type of refractor/insert? You can't really put that horse back in the barn.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I would like a tpg like this, but I doubt the people with a Jeter rookie would like it. Am I wrong that a 7 sells for $250 and a 10 sells for $166,000. Maybe I missed it, and the 10 is some type of refractor/insert? You can't really put that horse back in the barn.

A new TPG that focused on the basics of authenticating would not put PSA out of business. The people who want to play the PSA grading game could continue to do so.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by Mark17

A new TPG that focused on the basics of authenticating would not put PSA out of business. The people who want to play the PSA grading game could continue to do so.

The thing is, most people that don't care about graded tpg slabs can tell what they have. They won't send cards in to be graded. I know if someone put a BSF card in an "Aut-only/unaltered" holder, people would still look at it with a jaundiced eye, at least I would.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I would like a tpg like this, but I doubt the people with a Jeter rookie would like it. Am I wrong that a 7 sells for $250 and a 10 sells for $166,000. Maybe I missed it, and the 10 is some type of refractor/insert? You can't really put that horse back in the barn.

Agreed about the horse and barn. The whole pricing structure as we know it would have to collapse and folks would loose tremendous amounts of money. The only way the exponential price differences at the high end of the grading scale work is if a TPG has put a number on a plastic holder and people buy and sell based on that number, not what they can see with their eyes. Its also how the registry sets are ranked - and that is where the big money lives. How could I know that my set is better than yours (or anyone else's) if I have not had a TPG look at each card and give it a grade?

I'd like to see an authenticator/alteration detector come into the market, but I don't think it would be sustainable (without the number grades) without significant change to the market.

We've only been under the spell of TPGs for a relatively few years, but just like smart phones, there is no going back now.

And just for full disclosure, 99.9X% of my collection is raw, untouched by the soiled hands of he TPGs. However I won't proclaim that it is 100% untouched by the trimmers/forgers.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I would like a tpg like this, but I doubt the people with a Jeter rookie would like it. Am I wrong that a 7 sells for $250 and a 10 sells for $166,000. Maybe I missed it, and the 10 is some type of refractor/insert? You can't really put that horse back in the barn.

Exactly! This is the BIG problem!

[ullmandds]

But the more I think about it...maybe this is OK? It's helping to reallocate resources away from the filthy rich to the less rich?

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by familytoad

I'd start with the basic customer service model.
What do the customers actually want from such a product?

It's becoming easy to list what they DON'T want, which is much of what they are getting.

Here's a list off the top of my head on what a new service would need to provide:

• Impartiality.
• Intelligence on the market conditions.
• Integrity.
• Fair,consistent grading no matter who the submitter is.
• Solid, secure,attractive holders. Reasonable font size.
• Population reports with full data on variations etc
• Registry sets, easy way to register them with ownership changes.
• Reasonable wait times.
• Responsive, interactive service with submitters
• Some Hobby altruism to ensure the life cycle of their product and the hobby itself
• More integrity.

I would agree with everything on you list, but add a determination by a mechanized process of authenticity and verification of no alterations (trimming, recoloring, corners rebuilt, etc.).

[slightlyrounded]

Great question.

For me, I would pay a premium if I could have a public online report matching the slab number. Something that included:

• List of authentication sources consulted. This might include prior public sales, internal repository of notes, or a specialist for a particular issue.
• Reasoning for an assigned grade (Similar to BGS, but with notes unique to card)
• EXACT card dimensions
• High resolution scans, with micrography if possible.
• Ownership/provenance registry (public or private depending on submitter's preference).
• Grader employee number, if not name. This would ensure any 'patterns' could be monitored by the hobby.

Would love to see a ton of optionality on slab presentation. In other words, could be a plain frame (submitter choses colour/style), or might contain information on front (grade, card number, year) as they do now. I personally would prefer a smaller slab, frame only, with any information on the reverse.

Finally - It would be great to have a company that is regularly willing to stick their neck out on forums and actually explain reasoning behind certain decisions or problems. Eg: "We missed these trimmed cards, here's why, and here is what we intend to do about it"........Or, "turnaround times are at 5 weeks, but here is how we intend to bring wait times down."

[toledo_mudhen]

[QUOTE=slightlyrounded;1941824]
[*]- Reasoning for an assigned grade (Similar to BGS, but with notes unique to card)

This one is really irritating - Pretty much everyone who has been in the hobby for any length of time can get into the "ballpark" on what a card should grade.

Too often you get your slabbed card back with only a

"To Bad"
"Not Good Enough"
"You lose"
"Have Nice Day"

[T206Collector]

- A report for each card, similar to how the diamond industry does it, so you know where the flaws on the card are without having to guess.

- Some objective, impartial, computer-based system that would recognize the “fingerprints” on the card no matter how many times it was submitted.

- No more number grades, just “this is your card, here are the flaws, if you submit it to us again we will know it’s the same card even if you shave the border, recolor it, etc.”

[mq711]

All the above plus actual centering numbers: 40/60 LR and 30/70 TB. Not sure why that isn’t already done.

[bnorth]

I would use the best parts from the current companies.

Becketts, separate grades for corners, centering, edges, and surface. That way you really know where the good and bad areas are.

PSA, Marketing and registry

SGC, their coming soon scans of every card. Only really do it.

GAI, I really like their slabs. It is a combination of the new PSA slab with the awesome SGC black insert.

Then unlike all of the above keep everything on the up and up.

I know people have talked about a company that just authenticates cards without grades. There is no way that company would last and the owners would lose every penny they put into it.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

- A report for each card, similar to how the diamond industry does it, so you know where the flaws on the card are without having to guess.



- Some objective, impartial, computer-based system that would recognize the “fingerprints” on the card no matter how many times it was submitted.



- No more number grades, just “this is your card, here are the flaws, if you submit it to us again we will know it’s the same card even if you shave the border, recolor it, etc.”

+1...could not agree more.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[bnorth]

For those that want to do away with # grades please go into detail on how you would like it labeled.

Would all Authentic cards be labeled Authentic regardless of any alterations?

Would they be separated as Authentic and Authentic Altered?

Would only Authentic unaltered cards be slabbed?

[Jstottlemire1]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

- A report for each card, similar to how the diamond industry does it, so you know where the flaws on the card are without having to guess.

- Some objective, impartial, computer-based system that would recognize the “fingerprints” on the card no matter how many times it was submitted.

- No more number grades, just “this is your card, here are the flaws, if you submit it to us again we will know it’s the same card even if you shave the border, recolor it, etc.”

I agree with this spot on. We then can look and buy what we can or can’t deal with. It would level market for people that really like a card. They can pay for the card not the grade, grade then doesn’t effect the buyer or dealers leverages on the sale.