If You Started A Grading/Authentication service today...

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by conor912

I wouldn’t grade. I’d authenticate and slab and let collectors decide for themselves what grade it is.

The only grades would be authentic or not authentic.

[drcy]

Make sure it is never a publically traded company, so stock prices et al are never a part of the grading and authenticating and information process.

It should be a non-profit group (Which does not mean graders and workers don't get paid a fair salary and that money can't be invested back into the system).

It should have an outside board of directors who are concerned with the authentication and grading accuracy and process and how to disseminate that information to the public, not stock prices.

It should be treated as an academic endeavor. It should not be an "investment insurance" company.

I think it should stick to authentication (including alteration detection), and provide quality high-grade images for provenance, quality control and so people can grade fo themselves.

* * * *

I am not against a current board of experts being made to give opinions on the state of grading in the hobby. The hobby should start one right now, maybe something through SABR which is a well-known and respect non-profit academic group.

[JollyElm]

I would make every inch of the slab pitch black, 100% opaque, except for the label. Then the card itself wouldn't matter at all, just the number put on the holder...as it should be.

psalabelblack.jpg

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I would make every inch of the slab pitch black, 100% opaque, except for the label. Then the card itself wouldn't matter at all, just the number put on the holder...as it should be.

Attachment 378339

This would work great till the first person wanted to crack and resubmit. The slabs are all empty and the company(LLC) closed its doors. Everyone is living the life of luxury in country without a extradition treaty with the US.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by bnorth

This would work great till the first person wanted to crack and resubmit. The slabs are all empty and the company(LLC) closed its doors. Everyone is living the life of luxury in country without a extradition treaty with the US.

Oh, did I forget to mention, the labels are actually in pencil. There is no cracking and resubmitting. You just erase the number and add whatever you want it to say there. No examination of the card is ever necessary. It's the perfect grading solution.

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by drcy

Make sure it is never a publically traded company, so stock prices et al are never a part of the grading and authenticating and information process.

It should be a non-profit group (Which does not mean graders and workers don't get paid a fair salary and that money can't be invested back into the system).

It should have an outside board of directors who are concerned with the authentication and grading accuracy and process and how to disseminate that information to the public, not stock prices.

It should be treated as an academic endeavor. It should not be an "investment insurance" company.

I think it should stick to authentication (including alteration detection), and provide quality high-grade images for provenance, quality control and so people can grade fo themselves.

* * * *

I am not against a current board of experts being made to give opinions on the state of grading in the hobby. The hobby should start one right now, maybe something through SABR which is a well-known and respect non-profit academic group.

This is most in-line with my thoughts.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by buymycards

The only grades would be authentic or not authentic.

I think there should be 2 grades:
Authentic / Counterfeit
Original / Altered

Then a brief description of any alterations on the back label such as:

Recolored
Trimmed
Corners

[Phil68]

I saw where PSA took this exact thread down after one reply. What did I miss? Has that whole company lost its collective mind? I haven't been on community message boards for awhile but if you can't discuss what collectors value on a collector chatboard...what, exactly, should one discuss? I would think they would watch that thread like a hawk and respond to the needs/wants of their customers where it's possible...maybe even engage in responses of why something isn't feasible, etc.
The moderator said it could "get ugly"?

If I asked "How does everyone like their Italian beef?" on a sandwich shop board and they closed the question, I'd wonder what the heck I was eating, Lol.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Phil68

I saw where PSA took this exact thread down after one reply. What did I miss? Has that whole company lost its collective mind? I haven't been on community message boards for awhile but if you can't discuss what collectors value on a collector chatboard...what, exactly, should one discuss? I would think they would watch that thread like a hawk and respond to the needs/wants of their customers where it's possible...maybe even engage in responses of why something isn't feasible, etc.
The moderator said it could "get ugly"?

If I asked "How does everyone like their Italian beef?" on a sandwich shop board and they closed the question, I'd wonder what the heck I was eating, Lol.

So corrupt. Josef Stalin would run a more informative, more communicative and better forum than those corporate criminals.

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by perezfan

So corrupt. Josef Stalin would run a more informative, more communicative and better forum than those corporate criminals.

While I don't know enough about potential criminal activity, I can say they are dreadfully inconsistent and lack communication skills. The criminal stuff I'm just getting educated about since joining this forum.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Phil68

I saw where PSA took this exact thread down after one reply. What did I miss? Has that whole company lost its collective mind? I haven't been on community message boards for awhile but if you can't discuss what collectors value on a collector chatboard...what, exactly, should one discuss? I would think they would watch that thread like a hawk and respond to the needs/wants of their customers where it's possible...maybe even engage in responses of why something isn't feasible, etc.
The moderator said it could "get ugly"?

You missed that PSA is actively trying to sweep the entire grading scandal of 2019 under the rug. So your post implying that a different grading company should come into being is something I would have easily expected to get you banned from their website. Consider yourself lucky you just got your post locked. PSA doesn't want your suggestions; they just want your cash.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by swarmee

You missed that PSA is actively trying to sweep the entire grading scandal of 2019 under the rug. So your post implying that a different grading company should come into being is something I would have easily expected to get you banned from their website. Consider yourself lucky you just got your post locked. PSA doesn't want your suggestions; they just want your cash.

But why would anyone remotely want to participate in any forum in which thoughtful/insightful posts are censored, and honest people with good intentions are banned?

Come on, Sheeple!!

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

But why would anyone remotely want to participate in any forum in which thoughtful/insightful posts are censored, and honest people with good intentions are banned?

Come on, Sheeple!!

That is a very good question.

Maybe it fits their collecting habits, maybe they are bored and have nothing better to do.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I think there should be 2 grades:
Authentic / Counterfeit
Original / Altered

Then a brief description of any alterations on the back label such as:

Recolored
Trimmed
Corners

This is what I’d like to happen as well. But the grading company must actually know how to detect and assess alteration, and do it with 100% impartiality. A far cry from what we have now.

Number grades are purely subjective, and only lead to fraud and corruption. They feed the egos that fuel the worst attributes within our hobby. And who needs a 3rd party to assess a number grade anyway? It’s the collector’s damn property - not theirs. So just confirm the authenticity, then let US determine the aesthetics. People are way too hypnotized and conditioned to believe a number is a necessity.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by perezfan

But the grading company must actually know how to detect and assess alteration, and do it with 100% impartiality. A far cry from what we have now.
.

People grading are not invested in the hobby like we are. Its a job for someone, and has high turnover. They don't care about anything except hitting the production numbers required. If there was a company that could start out and afford knowledgeable people then it could be different. Problem is I would not give up my income, I am sure this applies to others as well, for a $25-35K a year job grading other peoples cards. Its not lucrative!

If there were 4-5 investors that put in the time and money, $150,000-250,000 each, for a program and new slabbing techniques then maybe we could have a revolution in the hobby and make significant changes for the betterment of all collectors. Transparency is a must so staying away from possible employees that have TPG ties with other companies is pertinent to survival. Ex: "Joe works for TBD Grading over the last 5 years. Some shady dealing have been tied to the company for some time. He now wants to come join the new TPG company." I can tell you from what I know that this has not worked out the best for those people or the TPD companies that have started like this.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Dumb question. Coins is a much older market, and has been grading longer. Did they ever undergo a similar scandal/issue? Did they get through it? I guess it's harder to "trim" a coin, but I know there are lots of things done to improve their appearance.

[sb1]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Dumb question. Coins is a much older market, and has been grading longer. Did they ever undergo a similar scandal/issue? Did they get through it? I guess it's harder to "trim" a coin, but I know there are lots of things done to improve their appearance.

The coin hobby is constantly bombarded with fakes, fake slabs, fake inserts, just like cards, as well as laser enhanced coins, etc and PCGS is constantly trying to keep up or one step ahead. It is a never ending cat and mouse game.

[sb1]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Dumb question. Coins is a much older market, and has been grading longer. Did they ever undergo a similar scandal/issue? Did they get through it? I guess it's harder to "trim" a coin, but I know there are lots of things done to improve their appearance.

The graded coin hobby is constantly bombarded with fakes, fake slabs, fake inserts, just like cards, as well as laser enhanced coins, etc and PCGS is constantly trying to keep up or one step ahead. It is a never ending cat and mouse game.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Dumb question. Coins is a much older market, and has been grading longer. Did they ever undergo a similar scandal/issue? Did they get through it? I guess it's harder to "trim" a coin, but I know there are lots of things done to improve their appearance.

Nothing I can recall that was quite like this. But as someone else mentioned, there have been all sorts of problems.

In stamps, which has had authentication for a LONG time, there has been a comparable situation. The Philatelic Foundation had a person who was the one entering the certificates into their computer. That person would ensure that stamps submitted by an alterer got good certificates, even if the expert committee had put in writing that it was bad. (Fake, altered, repaired, whatever. ) One of the guys doing the faking even had a license plate that was "stamp MD"

But they handled it right, Immediately reviewed all of a dealers submisions when the first one was discovered by an employee, tightened security and processes, bought back what stamps they could find (Fired the guy responsible, who was also arrested)
They built their reputation back up, and are one of the better authenticators, generally for US stamps.
Each country does the authenticating slightly differently.
Germany they used to stamp the expertizers name on the back.
They have had scandals too, one expert was essentially the only expert in one narrow field (Upper Silesia overprints) He was also the source of many fakes, all certified by..... him.
That one didn't have a happy ending...

[steve B]

Link about the scandal at the PF
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...069-story.html

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I think there should be 2 grades:
Authentic / Counterfeit
Original / Altered

Then a brief description of any alterations on the back label such as:

Recolored
Trimmed
Corners

I would like a tpg like this, but I doubt the people with a Jeter rookie would like it. Am I wrong that a 7 sells for $250 and a 10 sells for $166,000. Maybe I missed it, and the 10 is some type of refractor/insert? You can't really put that horse back in the barn.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I would like a tpg like this, but I doubt the people with a Jeter rookie would like it. Am I wrong that a 7 sells for $250 and a 10 sells for $166,000. Maybe I missed it, and the 10 is some type of refractor/insert? You can't really put that horse back in the barn.

A new TPG that focused on the basics of authenticating would not put PSA out of business. The people who want to play the PSA grading game could continue to do so.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by Mark17

A new TPG that focused on the basics of authenticating would not put PSA out of business. The people who want to play the PSA grading game could continue to do so.

The thing is, most people that don't care about graded tpg slabs can tell what they have. They won't send cards in to be graded. I know if someone put a BSF card in an "Aut-only/unaltered" holder, people would still look at it with a jaundiced eye, at least I would.

[RCMcKenzie]

Maybe I'm not a customer, but it could work for new people that are just entering the hobby. They buy a T206 raw and want peace of mind. They don't want to resell. They want thin, stackable slabs.

This card arrived today. I bought it for the Sov460 back. I have no reason to have it graded. It looks in the 5.5-6 range, but there's a crease on the back, maybe a 2.5?. If I ever sold it, I would send it to a number grade tpg to slab for the buyer...

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Maybe I'm not a customer, but it could work for new people that are just entering the hobby. They buy a T206 raw and want peace of mind. They don't want to resell. They want thin, stackable slabs.

This card arrived today. I bought it for the Sov460 back. I have no reason to have it graded. It looks in the 5.5-6 range, but there's a crease on the back, maybe a 2.5?. If I ever sold it, I would send it to a number grade tpg to slab for the buyer...

Don't quit your day job , crease is visible on the front as well, runs right up his torso. Still there was a time this would've gotten a 3 or even better. Now I think you're right with 2.5.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

The thing is, most people that don't care about graded tpg slabs can tell what they have. They won't send cards in to be graded. I know if someone put a BSF card in an "Aut-only/unaltered" holder, people would still look at it with a jaundiced eye, at least I would.

I agree, a service like we're talking about would not appeal to everyone. It would appeal to me however, because the reasons I like graded cards are to assure they are real (not counterfeit) and I want them in slabs for protection. Checking for alterations would be a nice bonus.

I am not looking to pay huge money for a high-graded card; I just want to know that what I do have is authentic. I can use my eyes to see the card's natural imperfections.

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I agree, a service like we're talking about would not appeal to everyone. It would appeal to me however, because the reasons I like graded cards are to assure they are real (not counterfeit) and I want them in slabs for protection. Checking for alterations would be a nice bonus.

I am not looking to pay huge money for a high-graded card; I just want to know that what I do have is authentic. I can use my eyes to see the card's natural imperfections.

This makes sense to me and probably to the majority of folks here.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I would like a tpg like this, but I doubt the people with a Jeter rookie would like it. Am I wrong that a 7 sells for $250 and a 10 sells for $166,000. Maybe I missed it, and the 10 is some type of refractor/insert? You can't really put that horse back in the barn.

Agreed about the horse and barn. The whole pricing structure as we know it would have to collapse and folks would loose tremendous amounts of money. The only way the exponential price differences at the high end of the grading scale work is if a TPG has put a number on a plastic holder and people buy and sell based on that number, not what they can see with their eyes. Its also how the registry sets are ranked - and that is where the big money lives. How could I know that my set is better than yours (or anyone else's) if I have not had a TPG look at each card and give it a grade?

I'd like to see an authenticator/alteration detector come into the market, but I don't think it would be sustainable (without the number grades) without significant change to the market.

We've only been under the spell of TPGs for a relatively few years, but just like smart phones, there is no going back now.

And just for full disclosure, 99.9X% of my collection is raw, untouched by the soiled hands of he TPGs. However I won't proclaim that it is 100% untouched by the trimmers/forgers.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I would like a tpg like this, but I doubt the people with a Jeter rookie would like it. Am I wrong that a 7 sells for $250 and a 10 sells for $166,000. Maybe I missed it, and the 10 is some type of refractor/insert? You can't really put that horse back in the barn.

Exactly! This is the BIG problem!

[ullmandds]

But the more I think about it...maybe this is OK? It's helping to reallocate resources away from the filthy rich to the less rich?