Hey, pennant guys

[Fballguy]

WOW...Amazing stuff!! Those are beautiful.

Now excuse me...I'll just put myself in the corner with my pale little collection.

[bocca001]

I agree with Fballguy, Greg. Those are great.

I happen to have a question about series of pennants that (if I recall correctly) you collect. The pic below has two Giants pennants. I've had the one on the bottom (with the yellow felt spine) for a few years. It is somewhat larger that most pennants. It doesn't fit well into most toploaders (too thick at the tip and a bit too long... insert joke). I never really liked that the spine had taken on some black from the pennant and wondered if it was the original spine.

I picked up the one with the Orange spine this week, even with the tip damage. It is a rare pennant and I figured "what the heck... I like the orange spine better than the yellow." When it arrived, I noticed that it is smaller than my other copy and the spine has more sheen. It is, however, about the the same length as most modern pennants.

Both pennants have tip damage, which makes exact size somewhat of an estimate.

Upon receiving the second one, I wondered if it had been cut down in some way (beyond the tip). But the picture below has the pennants lined up using the image of the Giant. The yellow spine one clearly has more room between the image and the spine, suggesting that maybe it is just a bigger version.

I was wondering if the pennants in this series are known with different types of material on the spine and if they differ in size. I'd also be curious to see other versions of this same pennant (I know you have one Rob).

[perezfan]

It certainly wasn't an exact science back then. I think they just took whatever lots of felt were available at the time (or for the best price), and then went to town. The material was relatively cheap, and likely had some variances from shipment to shipment.

Regarding the size variance, there's a good chance that the image was simply printed a little further down on the pennant, in the case of the second one. That would explain the larger gap between the spine an the graphics. You may say that the first one is still larger... but the second one is clearly altered/trimmed, so we don't really know how big it was in its original state.

Tough to put these shadowy thoughts in writing, but hopefully you get the gist of it. Pennants of this era were not cut with precision, like cards or team-issued photos. Some of these pennants came from street vendors who probably never even got inside the stadium. So there were some definite potential variances. I have lots of unaltered duplicates from the 1940s - 50s that differ in size quite a bit (just like your Giants example).

Eager to hear others' thoughts as well!

[perezfan]

Greg...

Thanks for posting those... the Athletics Pennants are off the charts cool. In the very early days, I think even the Tigers took a back seat to the A's with their White Elephant Mascot. I bet that a couple of those pennants could be lone survivors. Great stuff!

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

but the second one is clearly altered/trimmed, so we don't really know how big it was in its original state.

Just curious Mark...What leads you to believe it was trimmed? I thought the tip looked artificially sharp but being felt maybe it just wore down that way. Anything else?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Just curious Mark...What leads you to believe it was trimmed? I thought the tip looked artificially sharp but being felt maybe it just wore down that way. Anything else?

Oh sorry Rob.... my wording was bad, as is often the case when I'm hurrying.

Regarding the more recent one with the orange spine, it looks to be altered at the extreme tip. What you commonly see is that someone took a scissors to it, to re-sharpen the tip (forming an un-natural point). Many times, these were yanked off the wall (by a Mom or when the kid went off to college, etc). Very often, the tack or nail holding the tip would remain in the wall, and take a chunk of felt with it.

It's very common, and often collectors/sellers will try to re-sharpen the blunted/torn tip by trimming it into an artificial point. When this is done, the pennant can lose well over an inch in length. I am 99% sure that's what happened with Marc's newer orange-spined Giants Pennant.

Another thing to note (which Greg alluded to) is that many of these vintage pennants were manufactured with a blunt point. You can tell if you've seen enough of them. Its a natural look, that's hard to define in writing. But I still remember getting a Braves Pennant at Crosley Field in 1968 with a very blunt tip. I'd estimate that about 15% were just made that way.

Hope this helps to better explain it!

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

It certainly wasn't an exact science back then. I think they just took whatever lots of felt were available at the time (or for the best price), and then went to town. The material was relatively cheap, and likely had some variances from shipment to shipment.

Regarding the size variance, there's a good chance that the image was simply printed a little further down on the pennant, in the case of the second one. That would explain the larger gap between the spine an the graphics. You may say that the first one is still larger... but the second one is clearly altered/trimmed, so we don't really know how big it was in its original state.

Tough to put these shadowy thoughts in writing, but hopefully you get the gist of it. Pennants of this era were not cut with precision, like cards or team-issued photos. Some of these pennants came from street vendors who probably never even got inside the stadium. So there were some definite potential variances. I have lots of unaltered duplicates from the 1940s - 50s that differ in size quite a bit (just like your Giants example).

Eager to hear others' thoughts as well!

I noticed this even with the Collegiate pennants which were probably the highest-end made back then. My Yankees pennant seems to have Uncle Sam very close to the spine, much more so than on the two or three others I've seen (including your new pickup). It looks like a difference of almost a whole inch or so. But then there is more room to spare by the tip. It's just imperfection in printing or cutting I guess, like on mine the whole design was moved to the left.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

I noticed this even with the Collegiate pennants which were probably the highest-end made back then. My Yankees pennant seems to have Uncle Sam very close to the spine, much more so than on the two or three others I've seen (including your new pickup). It looks like a difference of almost a whole inch or so. But then there is more room to spare by the tip. It's just imperfection in printing or cutting I guess, like on mine the whole design was moved to the left.

Yeah.... the guy in charge of cutting and screening these was probably making about 35 cents per hour. Some are amazingly exact and consistent, but others have some definite variance.

Since these pennants cost under a buck back in the day, I don't think the attention to detail was always stellar. But that's part of why I love them so much. They're all just a bit different, and oozing with personality. Today's "stiff as a board" pennants are all precisely the same size, but that's not much fun, is it? And today's boring/generic/corporate logos cannot hold a candle to those of the past!

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

I agree with Fballguy, Greg. Those are great.

I happen to have a question about series of pennants that (if I recall correctly) you collect. The pic below has two Giants pennants. I've had the one on the bottom (with the yellow felt spine) for a few years. It is somewhat larger that most pennants. It doesn't fit well into most toploaders (too thick at the tip and a bit too long... insert joke). I never really liked that the spine had taken on some black from the pennant and wondered if it was the original spine.

I picked up the one with the Orange spine this week, even with the tip damage. It is a rare pennant and I figured "what the heck... I like the orange spine better than the yellow." When it arrived, I noticed that it is smaller than my other copy and the spine has more sheen. It is, however, about the the same length as most modern pennants.

Both pennants have tip damage, which makes exact size somewhat of an estimate.

Upon receiving the second one, I wondered if it had been cut down in some way (beyond the tip). But the picture below has the pennants lined up using the image of the Giant. The yellow spine one clearly has more room between the image and the spine, suggesting that maybe it is just a bigger version.

I was wondering if the pennants in this series are known with different types of material on the spine and if they differ in size. I'd also be curious to see other versions of this same pennant (I know you have one Rob).

Thanks guys …. yes this is my favorite series and yes, they seem to come in different sizes, almost as much as two inches. I have a Boston Braves with a true pointy tip that is smallish, and a Brooklyn Dodgers that is larger with a blunt tip (seemingly made that way). I'll get some pics for you. Those Giants pennants are awesome and very rare … the series seems to date to 1951-53 (due to the Cubs anniversary pennant and Dodgers NL Champs) but there's a Milwaukee Braves pennant that uses the same logo. So I guess some vendors continued some designs for a few years.

Speaking of these I saw a STL Cards pennant surface on eBay a few weeks ago in a small lot, and I debated getting it, but it was soiled pretty bad. I am still looking for both STL teams, one of our infrequent posters here would have me over a barrel if he ever wanted to sell his Browns.

Additionally, these pennants were made with tassels and a thicker spine - at least some teams were. I have Cubs and NY Giants.

I will say, since I initially got these pennants for display, because I like the artwork, I have never been a big stickler for the tip being perfect. I do know that many pennants were made with a slightly squared off tip, I have a Brooklyn Emmet Kelly pennant that is so big it barely fits in the holder and it looks like its missing another 1/2 inch with a squared tip. I agree with Mark, I think quality control was lacking with these things.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Thanks guys …. yes this is my favorite series and yes, they seem to come in different sizes, almost as much as two inches. I have a Boston Braves with a true pointy tip that is smallish, and a Brooklyn Dodgers that is larger with a blunt tip (seemingly made that way). I'll get some pics for you. Those Giants pennants are awesome and very rare … the series seems to date to 1951-53 (due to the Cubs anniversary pennant and Dodgers NL Champs) but there's a Milwaukee Braves pennant that uses the same logo. So I guess some vendors continued some designs for a few years.

Speaking of these I saw a STL Cards pennant surface on eBay a few weeks ago in a small lot, and I debated getting it, but it was soiled pretty bad. I am still looking for both STL teams, one of our infrequent posters here would have me over a barrel if he ever wanted to sell his Browns.

Additionally, these pennants were made with tassels and a thicker spine - at least some teams were. I have Cubs and NY Giants.

I will say, since I initially got these pennants for display, because I like the artwork, I have never been a big stickler for the tip being perfect. I do know that many pennants were made with a slightly squared off tip, I have a Brooklyn Emmet Kelly pennant that is so big it barely fits in the holder and it looks like its missing another 1/2 inch with a squared tip. I agree with Mark, I think quality control was lacking with these things.

Here’s the Giants with tassels (bottom ones tucked behind)

[bocca001]

Thanks for the input everyone. I do think that the one I just received has what Mark described: a bit of purposeful tapering at the tip. I knew that when I bought it. I figured that damaged tips must be common with these and I liked the Orange spine better for display. I never considered that the blunted tip on the other one might have been purposeful/original.

Hard to say how much might be missing from the tip of the orange spine pennant, but, the more I look at it (and after hearing from Greg), I don't think that this pennant was ever the same length as the one with the yellow spine. It is more narrow for the length of the entire pennant and it doesn't look like any other areas have been cut, including the orange spine. The stitching ends the same way top and bottom.

Overall, these pennants have a feel of being not the highest quality, so it makes sense that quality control was not the primary goal of the maker. Especially this maker.

Greg- do you have others with the more silky/sheen spine?

If they made SF Giants, they at least revisited this design around 1958. If so, it makes me wonder if there is an LA Dodgers version.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Thanks for the input everyone. I do think that the one I just received has what Mark described: a bit of purposeful tapering at the tip. I knew that when I bought it. I figured that damaged tips must be common with these and I liked the Orange spine better for display. I never considered that the blunted tip on the other one might have been purposeful/original.

Hard to say how much might be missing from the tip of the orange spine pennant, but, the more I look at it (and after hearing from Greg), I don't think that this pennant was ever the same length as the one with the yellow spine. It is more narrow for the length of the entire pennant and it doesn't look like any other areas have been cut, including the orange spine. The stitching ends the same way top and bottom.

Overall, these pennants have a feel of being not the highest quality, so it makes sense that quality control was not the primary goal of the maker. Especially this maker.

Greg- do you have others with the more silky/sheen spine?

If they made SF Giants, they at least revisited this design around 1958. If so, it makes me wonder if there is an LA Dodgers version.

Marc, yes I have a few, if I correctly understand to what you are referring. Most pennants, even cloth ones, have a felt spine and tassels. I have some that are 100% cloth. Not sure if I have cloth spine on felt though. That's pretty cool.

[thetahat]

One thing I notice about almost all of the pennants from this series is that they have a generic baseball scene somewhere on the pennant. Swinging hitter, sliding runner, maybe just crossed bats. All but the Senators, that is … two versions shown below and neither has them. So I think the SF Giants might be from another maker, who just decided to use the Giant logo … which probably makes it even more cool, not less. I love the font used for the name.

Awhile back I posted this pic which comes from the back of a book published back in 1956 … Inside Baseball for Little Leaguers. (I don't own it but a simple google search pulls it up.) This was at least five years *after* the pennants from the series were (first?) made. There you see all the logos from this set of pennants … 12 of the 16 that is. There is no (known) Orioles from this set, and the Phillies had drifted away from the blue jay. Notice the Reds logo … I guess they didn't want to put the mad bomber (my avatar!) on a book for kids. Interestingly, that's the logo that Keezer used for their Redlegs pennants.

(EDIT: I just noticed, the one Senators pennant does have a little baseball towards the tip … also noticed that on the book, unlike the pennant, the Dodger bum is identical except that he isn't smoking his cigar!)

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Thanks guys …. yes this is my favorite series and yes, they seem to come in different sizes, almost as much as two inches. I have a Boston Braves with a true pointy tip that is smallish, and a Brooklyn Dodgers that is larger with a blunt tip (seemingly made that way). I'll get some pics for you. Those Giants pennants are awesome and very rare … the series seems to date to 1951-53 (due to the Cubs anniversary pennant and Dodgers NL Champs) but there's a Milwaukee Braves pennant that uses the same logo. So I guess some vendors continued some designs for a few years.

Wait....these guys are part of a "series"? I noticed there are some subtle differences between the NY and SF "giant."

As far as size differences, my NY Giants would say "yeah."

P.S. The SF pennant has the silk-like spine.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by bocca001

I agree with Fballguy, Greg. Those are great.

I happen to have a question about series of pennants that (if I recall correctly) you collect. The pic below has two Giants pennants. I've had the one on the bottom (with the yellow felt spine) for a few years. It is somewhat larger that most pennants. It doesn't fit well into most toploaders (too thick at the tip and a bit too long... insert joke). I never really liked that the spine had taken on some black from the pennant and wondered if it was the original spine.

I picked up the one with the Orange spine this week, even with the tip damage. It is a rare pennant and I figured "what the heck... I like the orange spine better than the yellow." When it arrived, I noticed that it is smaller than my other copy and the spine has more sheen. It is, however, about the the same length as most modern pennants.

Both pennants have tip damage, which makes exact size somewhat of an estimate.

Upon receiving the second one, I wondered if it had been cut down in some way (beyond the tip). But the picture below has the pennants lined up using the image of the Giant. The yellow spine one clearly has more room between the image and the spine, suggesting that maybe it is just a bigger version.

I was wondering if the pennants in this series are known with different types of material on the spine and if they differ in size. I'd also be curious to see other versions of this same pennant (I know you have one Rob).

It would be my contention that the smaller pennant got wet either purposefully to clean it or just a basement. When they get wet they shrink throughout the pennant. Not all, but some. I would agree with Mark that the tip was trimmed as well on the smaller one.

You guys have some nice stuff. Merry Christmas. Jason