Hey, pennant guys

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

I agree with Fballguy, Greg. Those are great.

I happen to have a question about series of pennants that (if I recall correctly) you collect. The pic below has two Giants pennants. I've had the one on the bottom (with the yellow felt spine) for a few years. It is somewhat larger that most pennants. It doesn't fit well into most toploaders (too thick at the tip and a bit too long... insert joke). I never really liked that the spine had taken on some black from the pennant and wondered if it was the original spine.

I picked up the one with the Orange spine this week, even with the tip damage. It is a rare pennant and I figured "what the heck... I like the orange spine better than the yellow." When it arrived, I noticed that it is smaller than my other copy and the spine has more sheen. It is, however, about the the same length as most modern pennants.

Both pennants have tip damage, which makes exact size somewhat of an estimate.

Upon receiving the second one, I wondered if it had been cut down in some way (beyond the tip). But the picture below has the pennants lined up using the image of the Giant. The yellow spine one clearly has more room between the image and the spine, suggesting that maybe it is just a bigger version.

I was wondering if the pennants in this series are known with different types of material on the spine and if they differ in size. I'd also be curious to see other versions of this same pennant (I know you have one Rob).

Thanks guys …. yes this is my favorite series and yes, they seem to come in different sizes, almost as much as two inches. I have a Boston Braves with a true pointy tip that is smallish, and a Brooklyn Dodgers that is larger with a blunt tip (seemingly made that way). I'll get some pics for you. Those Giants pennants are awesome and very rare … the series seems to date to 1951-53 (due to the Cubs anniversary pennant and Dodgers NL Champs) but there's a Milwaukee Braves pennant that uses the same logo. So I guess some vendors continued some designs for a few years.

Speaking of these I saw a STL Cards pennant surface on eBay a few weeks ago in a small lot, and I debated getting it, but it was soiled pretty bad. I am still looking for both STL teams, one of our infrequent posters here would have me over a barrel if he ever wanted to sell his Browns.

Additionally, these pennants were made with tassels and a thicker spine - at least some teams were. I have Cubs and NY Giants.

I will say, since I initially got these pennants for display, because I like the artwork, I have never been a big stickler for the tip being perfect. I do know that many pennants were made with a slightly squared off tip, I have a Brooklyn Emmet Kelly pennant that is so big it barely fits in the holder and it looks like its missing another 1/2 inch with a squared tip. I agree with Mark, I think quality control was lacking with these things.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Thanks guys …. yes this is my favorite series and yes, they seem to come in different sizes, almost as much as two inches. I have a Boston Braves with a true pointy tip that is smallish, and a Brooklyn Dodgers that is larger with a blunt tip (seemingly made that way). I'll get some pics for you. Those Giants pennants are awesome and very rare … the series seems to date to 1951-53 (due to the Cubs anniversary pennant and Dodgers NL Champs) but there's a Milwaukee Braves pennant that uses the same logo. So I guess some vendors continued some designs for a few years.

Speaking of these I saw a STL Cards pennant surface on eBay a few weeks ago in a small lot, and I debated getting it, but it was soiled pretty bad. I am still looking for both STL teams, one of our infrequent posters here would have me over a barrel if he ever wanted to sell his Browns.

Additionally, these pennants were made with tassels and a thicker spine - at least some teams were. I have Cubs and NY Giants.

I will say, since I initially got these pennants for display, because I like the artwork, I have never been a big stickler for the tip being perfect. I do know that many pennants were made with a slightly squared off tip, I have a Brooklyn Emmet Kelly pennant that is so big it barely fits in the holder and it looks like its missing another 1/2 inch with a squared tip. I agree with Mark, I think quality control was lacking with these things.

Here’s the Giants with tassels (bottom ones tucked behind)

[bocca001]

Thanks for the input everyone. I do think that the one I just received has what Mark described: a bit of purposeful tapering at the tip. I knew that when I bought it. I figured that damaged tips must be common with these and I liked the Orange spine better for display. I never considered that the blunted tip on the other one might have been purposeful/original.

Hard to say how much might be missing from the tip of the orange spine pennant, but, the more I look at it (and after hearing from Greg), I don't think that this pennant was ever the same length as the one with the yellow spine. It is more narrow for the length of the entire pennant and it doesn't look like any other areas have been cut, including the orange spine. The stitching ends the same way top and bottom.

Overall, these pennants have a feel of being not the highest quality, so it makes sense that quality control was not the primary goal of the maker. Especially this maker.

Greg- do you have others with the more silky/sheen spine?

If they made SF Giants, they at least revisited this design around 1958. If so, it makes me wonder if there is an LA Dodgers version.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Thanks for the input everyone. I do think that the one I just received has what Mark described: a bit of purposeful tapering at the tip. I knew that when I bought it. I figured that damaged tips must be common with these and I liked the Orange spine better for display. I never considered that the blunted tip on the other one might have been purposeful/original.

Hard to say how much might be missing from the tip of the orange spine pennant, but, the more I look at it (and after hearing from Greg), I don't think that this pennant was ever the same length as the one with the yellow spine. It is more narrow for the length of the entire pennant and it doesn't look like any other areas have been cut, including the orange spine. The stitching ends the same way top and bottom.

Overall, these pennants have a feel of being not the highest quality, so it makes sense that quality control was not the primary goal of the maker. Especially this maker.

Greg- do you have others with the more silky/sheen spine?

If they made SF Giants, they at least revisited this design around 1958. If so, it makes me wonder if there is an LA Dodgers version.

Marc, yes I have a few, if I correctly understand to what you are referring. Most pennants, even cloth ones, have a felt spine and tassels. I have some that are 100% cloth. Not sure if I have cloth spine on felt though. That's pretty cool.

[thetahat]

One thing I notice about almost all of the pennants from this series is that they have a generic baseball scene somewhere on the pennant. Swinging hitter, sliding runner, maybe just crossed bats. All but the Senators, that is … two versions shown below and neither has them. So I think the SF Giants might be from another maker, who just decided to use the Giant logo … which probably makes it even more cool, not less. I love the font used for the name.

Awhile back I posted this pic which comes from the back of a book published back in 1956 … Inside Baseball for Little Leaguers. (I don't own it but a simple google search pulls it up.) This was at least five years *after* the pennants from the series were (first?) made. There you see all the logos from this set of pennants … 12 of the 16 that is. There is no (known) Orioles from this set, and the Phillies had drifted away from the blue jay. Notice the Reds logo … I guess they didn't want to put the mad bomber (my avatar!) on a book for kids. Interestingly, that's the logo that Keezer used for their Redlegs pennants.

(EDIT: I just noticed, the one Senators pennant does have a little baseball towards the tip … also noticed that on the book, unlike the pennant, the Dodger bum is identical except that he isn't smoking his cigar!)

[MK]

Originally Posted by thetahat

One thing I notice about almost all of the pennants from this series is that they have a generic baseball scene somewhere on the pennant. Swinging hitter, sliding runner, maybe just crossed bats. All but the Senators, that is … two versions shown below and neither has them. So I think the SF Giants might be from another maker, who just decided to use the Giant logo … which probably makes it even more cool, not less. I love the font used for the name.

Awhile back I posted this pic which comes from the back of a book published back in 1956 … Inside Baseball for Little Leaguers. (I don't own it but a simple google search pulls it up.) This was at least five years *after* the pennants from the series were (first?) made. There you see all the logos from this set of pennants … 12 of the 16 that is. There is no (known) Orioles from this set, and the Phillies had drifted away from the blue jay. Notice the Reds logo … I guess they didn't want to put the mad bomber (my avatar!) on a book for kids. Interestingly, that's the logo that Keezer used for their Redlegs pennants.

(EDIT: I just noticed, the one Senators pennant does have a little baseball towards the tip … also noticed that on the book, unlike the pennant, the Dodger bum is identical except that he isn't smoking his cigar!)

So were these pennants used the same logo but weren’t part of that series?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by MK

So were these pennants used the same logo but weren’t part of that series?

Mike … my guess is: same company, different production run. The one on the left may be earlier. I think Domer is onto something …. I'll address it below. Love the orange Cubs!

[Domer05]

The common element in this series seems to be an original mascot design on the head-end of the pennant; with the city name spelled out and a player (or two) wedged between the lettering. On all but the Washington pennants, this seems to be the case. (Greg: just curious as to why you think the Washington pennants belong to this series.)

We can eliminate Keezer as the maker. Although they always used monochrome graphics, like those in this series, they also always used tassels. Thick tassels. The kind that are sewed in tight and never fall out. Moreover, on many (but not all) of their pennants from the late 1940s and 1950s, they stamped their maker's mark on the reverse. To my knowledge none of these pennants have any such mark. Also, I have a Keezer catalogue from ca. 1950 and the artwork used for the 16 big league baseball teams is different from these; and, different from those shown on Greg's ca. 1956 little league ad.

I think we can eliminate ADFLAG, too. Some pennants from this series feature tassels; but, the majority do not. To my knowledge ADFLAG never used tassels.

That leaves WGN. Their production of sports pennants began in the 1930s; but, it was limited to Chicago sports teams. Or, so I thought.... They also began using monochrome designs; but switched to polychrome about 1950. Most importantly, they used tassels in the early 1940s; but, seem to have stopped using them sometime in the mid-1940s.

To me, this last characteristic is the best evidence that WGN manufactured this series. Of the usual suspects, they're the only one that makes sense.

Of course, it's possible some other maker made these that we all haven't yet identified, like Annin. There has to be at least one other national manufacturer from the late 1940s that we haven't yet identified, and this series may be part of their work.

It's interesting this mystery maker made both an NY and SF Giants pennant for the series; but, only a Brooklyn Dodgers. I'd like to think I know LA Dodgers pennants as well as anyone and I cannot think of any Los Angeles Dodgers pennant that looks like this; or, utilizes that same bum smoking cigar artwork.

[perezfan]

I've got the Browns Pennant from this series, and (aside from the Reds) it is my favorite. Will try to dig it out and show it here...

Also, I agree with Greg, that the Senators are part of this series. Same artist/artwork, minus the little vignette.

Also want to add that these are all very high quality, thick felt pennants. One of them that I owned previously had vintage ink writing on the back which stated the date of the game... "Red Sox 4 - Indians 2, June 16, 1951" or something to that effect. I don't recall the exact score or date, but it was definitely sold in 1951.

Lastly, there is a second Red Sox variation. Similar to the one Greg pictured, but quite different, on a darker red felt. I will try to post that one after the Holidays as well.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

The common element in this series seems to be an original mascot design on the head-end of the pennant; with the city name spelled out and a player (or two) wedged between the lettering. On all but the Washington pennants, this seems to be the case. (Greg: just curious as to why you think the Washington pennants belong to this series.)

We can eliminate Keezer as the maker. Although they always used monochrome graphics, like those in this series, they also always used tassels. Thick tassels. The kind that are sewed in tight and never fall out. Moreover, on many (but not all) of their pennants from the late 1940s and 1950s, they stamped their maker's mark on the reverse. To my knowledge none of these pennants have any such mark. Also, I have a Keezer catalogue from ca. 1950 and the artwork used for the 16 big league baseball teams is different from these; and, different from those shown on Greg's ca. 1956 little league ad.

I think we can eliminate ADFLAG, too. Some pennants from this series feature tassels; but, the majority do not. To my knowledge ADFLAG never used tassels.

That leaves WGN. Their production of sports pennants began in the 1930s; but, it was limited to Chicago sports teams. Or, so I thought.... They also began using monochrome designs; but switched to polychrome about 1950. Most importantly, they used tassels in the early 1940s; but, seem to have stopped using them sometime in the mid-1940s.

To me, this last characteristic is the best evidence that WGN manufactured this series. Of the usual suspects, they're the only one that makes sense.

Of course, it's possible some other maker made these that we all haven't yet identified, like Annin. There has to be at least one other national manufacturer from the late 1940s that we haven't yet identified, and this series may be part of their work.

It's interesting this mystery maker made both an NY and SF Giants pennant for the series; but, only a Brooklyn Dodgers. I'd like to think I know LA Dodgers pennants as well as anyone and I cannot think of any Los Angeles Dodgers pennant that looks like this; or, utilizes that same bum smoking cigar artwork.

Domer, I think you nailed it. First, yeah the Senators pennant fits the bill, it actually has a crossed bats graphic that a couple others also have. I never noticed that, either. Not sure why my other Senators pennant is missing the cartoon guy and the other stuff but its the same font and same Capitol building graphic.

But there's a lot of evidence that puts these to 1951 (in addition to Mark's hand-dated pennant) and to a company from Chicago.

For some reason there's one team that got a dated anniversary pennant … the Cubs. And there are multiple versions of it. Why no other NL teams? Also the non-dated Cubs pennant comes in two different colors … I think the Chisox also does. Don't know if true for any other clubs.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

There is no (known) Orioles from this set, and the Phillies had drifted away from the blue jay.

Wait, can we go back to something? The Phillies used a blue jay as their mascot??

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Wait, can we go back to something? The Phillies used a blue jay as their mascot??

Apparently back in the mid 40s there was a push to change the team name, they had a contest and everything. For a few years they used both Phillies and Blue Jays. This link provides good details.

https://www.toddradom.com/blog/sport...e-jaysphillies

It never quite took, but they did wear a blue jay on the sleeve of some uniforms, and it appeared on programs and quite a few pennants. Pictured below are a few of them, the one with roster is from 1949 which is probably right at the time when they abandoned the idea.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Thanks guys …. yes this is my favorite series and yes, they seem to come in different sizes, almost as much as two inches. I have a Boston Braves with a true pointy tip that is smallish, and a Brooklyn Dodgers that is larger with a blunt tip (seemingly made that way). I'll get some pics for you. Those Giants pennants are awesome and very rare … the series seems to date to 1951-53 (due to the Cubs anniversary pennant and Dodgers NL Champs) but there's a Milwaukee Braves pennant that uses the same logo. So I guess some vendors continued some designs for a few years.

Wait....these guys are part of a "series"? I noticed there are some subtle differences between the NY and SF "giant."

As far as size differences, my NY Giants would say "yeah."

P.S. The SF pennant has the silk-like spine.