Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

The body count just increases.....

I read through the entire thread and in addition to the Cheevers card, there was some VERY ENLIGHTENING BIT OF NEWS IF TRUE (maybe the bubble has finally burst and they see this as their only way of surviving as a business):

"A PSA representative told a collector at the Chicago show this weekend that they don't issue refunds for altered cards.

Last week, PSA returned a collector's proven trimmed card in the same PSA 10 slab that was sent in to receive compensation under their Grade Guarantee. They were told to seek a refund from the seller. The only problem is the card has quadrupled in value since they purchased it.

Good responses there when PSA doesn't even want to acknowledge or honor their Grade Guarantee."

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=59

I'd be curious if anyone else had heard about this stance allegedly held by PSA? Any comments regardless?

Well we saw Sloan urge people to go to their sellers first, way back when this first broke. That said, I am aware of at least one instance where PSA paid someone whose cards had appreciated the difference between his purchase price (which PWCC refunded) and market value. This is the first I've heard of PSA allegedly expressly disclaiming their guarantee altogether. Too many levels of hearsay for me to take it as gospel.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well we saw Sloan urge people to go to their sellers first, way back when this first broke. That said, I am aware of at least one instance where PSA paid someone whose cards had appreciated the difference between his purchase price (which PWCC refunded) and market value. This is the first I've heard of PSA allegedly expressly disclaiming their guarantee altogether. Too many levels of hearsay for me to take it as gospel.

Peter, can you envision a scenario where PWCC refunds the purchase price, PSA refuses to honor its guarantee, and PWCC ends up suing PSA?

That would be very interesting to watch. Because if PWCC is honoring its guarantees (by accepting returns) but PSA is not............

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Peter, can you envision a scenario where PWCC refunds the purchase price, PSA refuses to honor its guarantee, and PWCC ends up suing PSA?

That would be very interesting to watch. Because if PWCC is honoring its guarantees (by accepting returns) but PSA is not............

It would be the owner who would have the claim, not PWCC, if the market price is higher than the refunded purchase price. How is PWCC out anything? It chose to refund presumably because of its own role.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Peter, can you envision a scenario where PWCC refunds the purchase price, PSA refuses to honor its guarantee, and PWCC ends up suing PSA?

That would be very interesting to watch. Because if PWCC is honoring its guarantees (by accepting returns) but PSA is not............

I can’t speak for Peter but I can absolutely see your above scenario unfolding.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I can’t speak for Peter but I can absolutely see your above scenario unfolding.

To me the more likely scenario is PSA issuing a refund and then going after PWCC for violating the terms of service by submitting altered cards.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To me the more likely scenario is PSA issuing a refund and then going after PWCC for violating the terms of service by submitting altered cards.

Could very well happen as well....there are gonna be some heated battles

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Could very well happen as well....there are gonna be some heated battles

'heated battles' sending a letter back and forth...wow thats heated..

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I can’t speak for Peter but I can absolutely see your above scenario unfolding.

Customer wants full restitution, PWCC says they will only refund the purchase price, customer goes after PWCC so PWCC, as the submitter of the card for grading, then goes after PSA.

It occurs to me that PWCC already has its lawyer, and I really wonder if something's cooking......

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Customer wants full restitution, PWCC says they will only refund the purchase price, customer goes after PWCC so PWCC, as the submitter of the card for grading, then goes after PSA.

It occurs to me that PWCC already has its lawyer, and I really wonder if something's cooking......

One thing always stays consistent Mark PSA is always an involved party/facilitator .....however they believe their business is Teflon.....so far nothing sticks. When it’s just an opinion and you’re supposed to submit in good faith they could argue in tort court all day and night.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

One thing always stays consistent Mark PSA is always an involved party/facilitator .....however they believe their business is Teflon.....so far nothing sticks. When it’s just an opinion and you’re supposed to submit in good faith they could argue in tort court all day and night.

Proving PWCC (or some other plaintiff, or in a class action) was not acting in good faith might be difficult. Intent is is tough to determine if there is no smoking gun.

Yes it is just an opinion but isn't there supposed to be a guarantee behind that opinion? And if alterations to a card can be proven (meaning, if it can be proven PSA gave cards high grades they did not merit) then would that teflon coating hold up?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Customer wants full restitution, PWCC says they will only refund the purchase price, customer goes after PWCC so PWCC, as the submitter of the card for grading, then goes after PSA.

It occurs to me that PWCC already has its lawyer, and I really wonder if something's cooking......

Why is PWCC obligated to do more? it didn't guarantee its buyers a profit. It's making full restitution by refunding the purchase price. PSA is only obligated to pay market value because those are the terms of its guarantee.

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why is PWCC obligated to do more? it didn't guarantee its buyers a profit. It's making full restitution by refunding the purchase price. PSA is only obligated to pay market value because those are the terms of its guarantee.

They may not actually "guarantee" a profit but all of their slick marketing can presumably make one believe that they do and some good lawyering could probably make that stick...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

They may not actually "guarantee" a profit but all of their slick marketing can presumably make one believe that they do and some good lawyering could probably make that stick...

So if the card has gone down in value does PWCC only owe a partial refund?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well we saw Sloan urge people to go to their sellers first, way back when this first broke. That said, I am aware of at least one instance where PSA paid someone whose cards had appreciated the difference between his purchase price (which PWCC refunded) and market value. This is the first I've heard of PSA allegedly expressly disclaiming their guarantee altogether. Too many levels of hearsay for me to take it as gospel.

Now that you mention it, you're correct on the Sloan statement - which is appalling in my opinion, particularly since PSA is still advertising a guarantee on their website:

The PSA Guarantee of Grade and Authenticity
This policy is fundamental to PSA's concept of third-party grading. It ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PSA-graded card as long as the card remains in its tamper-evident holder. PSA also guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA.

https://www.psacard.com/about/whypsa/

and checking their Grading Standards, they still regard these modifications as ungradable:

PSA will not grade cards that bear evidence of trimming, re-coloring, restoration, or any other forms of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity.

https://www.psacard.com/resources/gr...andards/#cards

So legally, (although I'm not a lawyer) I can't see how they can weasel their way out of this and I'd recommend that all PSA collectors to print out the guarantee and Ungradable Card grading standards for their own protection for future disputes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Meanwhile, as best I can determine, the guarantee that used to appear on S_C's website remains missing in action. I asked about this months ago and was assured they were just tweaking the language and that it would reappear shortly.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Meanwhile, as best I can determine, the guarantee that used to appear on S_C's website remains missing in action. I asked about this months ago and was assured they were just tweaking the language and that it would reappear shortly.

My memory is shot so please correct me if I am wrong. Wasn't SGCs guarantee on cards that they would regrade the card and give it the proper grade?

I don't remember them having a guarantee like PSA has.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

My memory is shot so please correct me if I am wrong. Wasn't SGCs guarantee on cards that they would regrade the card and give it the proper grade?

I don't remember them having a guarantee like PSA has.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170704...Guarantee.aspx

The SGC Guarantee


SGC guarantees that all cards submitted shall be graded by SGC grading experts in accordance with SGC grading procedures. In the event the owner of an SGC card believes that the card has been overgraded with respect to such procedures, the owner may resubmit the card to SGC for a review of the assigned grade.

If the grade determined under such review is lower than that originally assigned to the card, SGC shall, at SGC's discretion, either replace the card or pay the difference between the current fair market value of the card at the newly established grade and the current fair market value of the grade originally assigned to such card, in the form of either cash or grading credit. Due to the volatile nature of the sportscard market and Internet auctions/sales, the selling prices in these auctions do not necessarily represent the current fair market value of any particular sportscard. SGC will determine the current fair market value of a card which is assigned a lower grade on review, based upon what SGC believes to be reliable current market information. Clerical errors with respect to the description or grade of the card(s) which would be obvious upon inspection shall not be subject to the SGC guarantee stated herein.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Now that you mention it, you're correct on the Sloan statement - which is appalling in my opinion, particularly since PSA is still advertising a guarantee on their website:

The PSA Guarantee of Grade and Authenticity
This policy is fundamental to PSA's concept of third-party grading. It ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PSA-graded card as long as the card remains in its tamper-evident holder. PSA also guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA.

https://www.psacard.com/about/whypsa/

I'm no lawyer, but it looks like there is enough room in that statement to drive a truck through. Who is the guarantee for - only the original seller or any buyer down the road? And it seems like it's only the grade that is guaranteed - could they just take a card that was mis-graded, say altered but still given an number grade, and reholder it with an 'Authentic - Altered' and call that their guarantee? Holding them accountable would be like what Willie Stargell said of trying to hit Koufax, "trying to drink coffee with a fork".

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I'm no lawyer, but it looks like there is enough room in that statement to drive a truck through. Who is the guarantee for - only the original seller or any buyer down the road? And it seems like it's only the grade that is guaranteed - could they just take a card that was mis-graded, say altered but still given an number grade, and reholder it with an 'Authentic - Altered' and call that their guarantee? Holding them accountable would be like what Willie Stargell said of trying to hit Koufax, "trying to drink coffee with a fork".

yet thus far seems to be an non issue and consensus of this forum is not much will change with PSA.....i would think if a poll was made, most people will think nothing will change but thats just my opinion...someone can always create a poll and prove me wrong...

[Johnny630]

Said this numerous times PSA has a Teflon Non Stick Liability/accountability business mode. Along with two of the biggest marketing hoaxes in the industry pop report and registry. This company will get through this just like all the other scandals. It will come out stronger in the long run/everyone else will take the fall. People are making to much money on their products......they know many are backed into a corner and have to use them for the most part. I’m referring to the major auction houses, dealers, and big eBay sellers. They’re not gonna bite the hand that feeds them. So what if they have to fire people if any have been tired to being paid off for gift grades bfd.
They have a brilliant business, I have to give them credit on that’s.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Said this numerous times PSA has a Teflon Non Stick Liability/accountability business mode. Along with two of the biggest marketing hoaxes in the industry pop report and registry. This company will get through this just like all the other scandals. It will come out stronger in the long run/everyone else will take the fall. People are making to much money on their products......they know many are backed into a corner and have to use them for the most part. I’m referring to the major auction houses, dealers, and big eBay sellers.
They have a brilliant business, I have to give them credit on that’s.

so basically you will be saying nothing will likely happen against them?

[Johnny630]

Jake I can’t predict the future, I don’t know sir it’s all my theory. To me.....people with big money don’t like to be told your PSA graded cards are Sh$t they are on blowout as altered. They just think others are jealous. To many people need PSA for them to bite of their nose to spite their face.....they won’t do it.
I’m not a lawyer.......It Is an opinion only biased company...... you know how many times I try to sell a raw card I get asked do you guarantee PSA will grade this or oh I can’t pay that for a raw card PSA might call it a 6 not a 7. It’s all mental they still LOVE EAT COWER AT THE PSA THRONE...trying to get a lot of victims in court to nail them for big bucks seems very difficult to me can’t even get them to come forward. They’re going back to whom they bought the cards from. And many still don’t know....We are just a few blow hards on a message board. I think it’s all going to be worked out behind the scenes.
Short answer No PSA walks away squeaky clean.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

we will say its early still but also i hearing, nothing will likely happen as well so its double talk..

Actually you started with an insult by quoting one about you. Congrats on that.

I just wanted to point out that you are speculating and have zero knowledge as to what “I hearing .. will likely happen.” A poll is not a substitute for knowledge. I wouldn’t want anyone to mistake your speculation for actual knowledge is all. However as soon as someone hires you to sue PSA or to represent them in connection with the criminal investigation then maybe your claim that “I hearing ... nothing will likely happen” could at least be based in fact.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I'm no lawyer, but it looks like there is enough room in that statement to drive a truck through. Who is the guarantee for - only the original seller or any buyer down the road? And it seems like it's only the grade that is guaranteed - could they just take a card that was mis-graded, say altered but still given an number grade, and reholder it with an 'Authentic - Altered' and call that their guarantee? Holding them accountable would be like what Willie Stargell said of trying to hit Koufax, "trying to drink coffee with a fork".

The guarantee is not ambiguous at all. It covers marketplace purchasers (that was the whole point) and certainly applies to altered cards that were originally given numerical grades. PSA does not dispute this. The issue, rather, is application of the guarantee in individual cases, where they can control their payout just by sticking with the original grade.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The guarantee is not ambiguous at all. It covers marketplace purchasers (that was the whole point) and certainly applies to altered cards that were originally given numerical grades. PSA does not dispute this. The issue, rather, is application of the guarantee in individual cases, where they can control their payout just by sticking with the original grade.

In theory they can also change the rules and say properly 'restored' cards can still be a PSA 6 etc

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

In theory they can also change the rules and say properly 'restored' cards can still be a PSA 6 etc

You mean change their definition of what they consider unacceptable alterations? I suppose, but it's hard to believe they will given 25+ years of operating under the same definition.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You mean change their definition of what they consider unacceptable alterations? I suppose, but it's hard to believe they will given 25+ years of operating under the same definition.

Rules do change. There may be small print to read that may say that as well, who knows. When its about subjectivity there is always much more leeway...