Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I gave up on trying to make a pun using Cheevers.

Presented without comment.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...7&postcount=27

The body count just increases.....

I read through the entire thread and in addition to the Cheevers card, there was some VERY ENLIGHTENING BIT OF NEWS IF TRUE (maybe the bubble has finally burst and they see this as their only way of surviving as a business):

"A PSA representative told a collector at the Chicago show this weekend that they don't issue refunds for altered cards.

Last week, PSA returned a collector's proven trimmed card in the same PSA 10 slab that was sent in to receive compensation under their Grade Guarantee. They were told to seek a refund from the seller. The only problem is the card has quadrupled in value since they purchased it.

Good responses there when PSA doesn't even want to acknowledge or honor their Grade Guarantee."

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=59

I'd be curious if anyone else had heard about this stance allegedly held by PSA? Any comments regardless?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

The body count just increases.....

I read through the entire thread and in addition to the Cheevers card, there was some VERY ENLIGHTENING BIT OF NEWS IF TRUE (maybe the bubble has finally burst and they see this as their only way of surviving as a business):

"A PSA representative told a collector at the Chicago show this weekend that they don't issue refunds for altered cards.

Last week, PSA returned a collector's proven trimmed card in the same PSA 10 slab that was sent in to receive compensation under their Grade Guarantee. They were told to seek a refund from the seller. The only problem is the card has quadrupled in value since they purchased it.

Good responses there when PSA doesn't even want to acknowledge or honor their Grade Guarantee."

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=59

I'd be curious if anyone else had heard about this stance allegedly held by PSA? Any comments regardless?

Wow that’s a Bombshell If this is true. This is Dreadful Shameful.

It seems PSA only cares about the major altering business rather than collectors. This is disgraceful another depressing page turns sour.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Wow that’s a Bombshell If this is true. This is Dreadful Shameful.

It seems PSA only cares about the major altering business rather than collectors. This is disgraceful another depressing page turns sour.

I have no doubt that PSA fights tooth and nail in individual cases to justify not paying people, but I have serious doubt that they have disclaimed the guarantee totally.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

The body count just increases.....

I read through the entire thread and in addition to the Cheevers card, there was some VERY ENLIGHTENING BIT OF NEWS IF TRUE (maybe the bubble has finally burst and they see this as their only way of surviving as a business):

"A PSA representative told a collector at the Chicago show this weekend that they don't issue refunds for altered cards.

Last week, PSA returned a collector's proven trimmed card in the same PSA 10 slab that was sent in to receive compensation under their Grade Guarantee. They were told to seek a refund from the seller. The only problem is the card has quadrupled in value since they purchased it.

Good responses there when PSA doesn't even want to acknowledge or honor their Grade Guarantee."

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=59

I'd be curious if anyone else had heard about this stance allegedly held by PSA? Any comments regardless?

Well we saw Sloan urge people to go to their sellers first, way back when this first broke. That said, I am aware of at least one instance where PSA paid someone whose cards had appreciated the difference between his purchase price (which PWCC refunded) and market value. This is the first I've heard of PSA allegedly expressly disclaiming their guarantee altogether. Too many levels of hearsay for me to take it as gospel.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well we saw Sloan urge people to go to their sellers first, way back when this first broke. That said, I am aware of at least one instance where PSA paid someone whose cards had appreciated the difference between his purchase price (which PWCC refunded) and market value. This is the first I've heard of PSA allegedly expressly disclaiming their guarantee altogether. Too many levels of hearsay for me to take it as gospel.

Peter, can you envision a scenario where PWCC refunds the purchase price, PSA refuses to honor its guarantee, and PWCC ends up suing PSA?

That would be very interesting to watch. Because if PWCC is honoring its guarantees (by accepting returns) but PSA is not............

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Peter, can you envision a scenario where PWCC refunds the purchase price, PSA refuses to honor its guarantee, and PWCC ends up suing PSA?

That would be very interesting to watch. Because if PWCC is honoring its guarantees (by accepting returns) but PSA is not............

It would be the owner who would have the claim, not PWCC, if the market price is higher than the refunded purchase price. How is PWCC out anything? It chose to refund presumably because of its own role.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Peter, can you envision a scenario where PWCC refunds the purchase price, PSA refuses to honor its guarantee, and PWCC ends up suing PSA?

That would be very interesting to watch. Because if PWCC is honoring its guarantees (by accepting returns) but PSA is not............

I can’t speak for Peter but I can absolutely see your above scenario unfolding.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I can’t speak for Peter but I can absolutely see your above scenario unfolding.

To me the more likely scenario is PSA issuing a refund and then going after PWCC for violating the terms of service by submitting altered cards.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To me the more likely scenario is PSA issuing a refund and then going after PWCC for violating the terms of service by submitting altered cards.

Could very well happen as well....there are gonna be some heated battles

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Could very well happen as well....there are gonna be some heated battles

'heated battles' sending a letter back and forth...wow thats heated..

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I can’t speak for Peter but I can absolutely see your above scenario unfolding.

Customer wants full restitution, PWCC says they will only refund the purchase price, customer goes after PWCC so PWCC, as the submitter of the card for grading, then goes after PSA.

It occurs to me that PWCC already has its lawyer, and I really wonder if something's cooking......

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Customer wants full restitution, PWCC says they will only refund the purchase price, customer goes after PWCC so PWCC, as the submitter of the card for grading, then goes after PSA.

It occurs to me that PWCC already has its lawyer, and I really wonder if something's cooking......

One thing always stays consistent Mark PSA is always an involved party/facilitator .....however they believe their business is Teflon.....so far nothing sticks. When it’s just an opinion and you’re supposed to submit in good faith they could argue in tort court all day and night.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

One thing always stays consistent Mark PSA is always an involved party/facilitator .....however they believe their business is Teflon.....so far nothing sticks. When it’s just an opinion and you’re supposed to submit in good faith they could argue in tort court all day and night.

Proving PWCC (or some other plaintiff, or in a class action) was not acting in good faith might be difficult. Intent is is tough to determine if there is no smoking gun.

Yes it is just an opinion but isn't there supposed to be a guarantee behind that opinion? And if alterations to a card can be proven (meaning, if it can be proven PSA gave cards high grades they did not merit) then would that teflon coating hold up?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Customer wants full restitution, PWCC says they will only refund the purchase price, customer goes after PWCC so PWCC, as the submitter of the card for grading, then goes after PSA.

It occurs to me that PWCC already has its lawyer, and I really wonder if something's cooking......

Why is PWCC obligated to do more? it didn't guarantee its buyers a profit. It's making full restitution by refunding the purchase price. PSA is only obligated to pay market value because those are the terms of its guarantee.

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why is PWCC obligated to do more? it didn't guarantee its buyers a profit. It's making full restitution by refunding the purchase price. PSA is only obligated to pay market value because those are the terms of its guarantee.

They may not actually "guarantee" a profit but all of their slick marketing can presumably make one believe that they do and some good lawyering could probably make that stick...

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well we saw Sloan urge people to go to their sellers first, way back when this first broke. That said, I am aware of at least one instance where PSA paid someone whose cards had appreciated the difference between his purchase price (which PWCC refunded) and market value. This is the first I've heard of PSA allegedly expressly disclaiming their guarantee altogether. Too many levels of hearsay for me to take it as gospel.

Now that you mention it, you're correct on the Sloan statement - which is appalling in my opinion, particularly since PSA is still advertising a guarantee on their website:

The PSA Guarantee of Grade and Authenticity
This policy is fundamental to PSA's concept of third-party grading. It ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PSA-graded card as long as the card remains in its tamper-evident holder. PSA also guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA.

https://www.psacard.com/about/whypsa/

and checking their Grading Standards, they still regard these modifications as ungradable:

PSA will not grade cards that bear evidence of trimming, re-coloring, restoration, or any other forms of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity.

https://www.psacard.com/resources/gr...andards/#cards

So legally, (although I'm not a lawyer) I can't see how they can weasel their way out of this and I'd recommend that all PSA collectors to print out the guarantee and Ungradable Card grading standards for their own protection for future disputes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Meanwhile, as best I can determine, the guarantee that used to appear on S_C's website remains missing in action. I asked about this months ago and was assured they were just tweaking the language and that it would reappear shortly.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Meanwhile, as best I can determine, the guarantee that used to appear on S_C's website remains missing in action. I asked about this months ago and was assured they were just tweaking the language and that it would reappear shortly.

My memory is shot so please correct me if I am wrong. Wasn't SGCs guarantee on cards that they would regrade the card and give it the proper grade?

I don't remember them having a guarantee like PSA has.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

My memory is shot so please correct me if I am wrong. Wasn't SGCs guarantee on cards that they would regrade the card and give it the proper grade?

I don't remember them having a guarantee like PSA has.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170704...Guarantee.aspx

The SGC Guarantee


SGC guarantees that all cards submitted shall be graded by SGC grading experts in accordance with SGC grading procedures. In the event the owner of an SGC card believes that the card has been overgraded with respect to such procedures, the owner may resubmit the card to SGC for a review of the assigned grade.

If the grade determined under such review is lower than that originally assigned to the card, SGC shall, at SGC's discretion, either replace the card or pay the difference between the current fair market value of the card at the newly established grade and the current fair market value of the grade originally assigned to such card, in the form of either cash or grading credit. Due to the volatile nature of the sportscard market and Internet auctions/sales, the selling prices in these auctions do not necessarily represent the current fair market value of any particular sportscard. SGC will determine the current fair market value of a card which is assigned a lower grade on review, based upon what SGC believes to be reliable current market information. Clerical errors with respect to the description or grade of the card(s) which would be obvious upon inspection shall not be subject to the SGC guarantee stated herein.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Now that you mention it, you're correct on the Sloan statement - which is appalling in my opinion, particularly since PSA is still advertising a guarantee on their website:

The PSA Guarantee of Grade and Authenticity
This policy is fundamental to PSA's concept of third-party grading. It ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PSA-graded card as long as the card remains in its tamper-evident holder. PSA also guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA.

https://www.psacard.com/about/whypsa/

I'm no lawyer, but it looks like there is enough room in that statement to drive a truck through. Who is the guarantee for - only the original seller or any buyer down the road? And it seems like it's only the grade that is guaranteed - could they just take a card that was mis-graded, say altered but still given an number grade, and reholder it with an 'Authentic - Altered' and call that their guarantee? Holding them accountable would be like what Willie Stargell said of trying to hit Koufax, "trying to drink coffee with a fork".

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I'm no lawyer, but it looks like there is enough room in that statement to drive a truck through. Who is the guarantee for - only the original seller or any buyer down the road? And it seems like it's only the grade that is guaranteed - could they just take a card that was mis-graded, say altered but still given an number grade, and reholder it with an 'Authentic - Altered' and call that their guarantee? Holding them accountable would be like what Willie Stargell said of trying to hit Koufax, "trying to drink coffee with a fork".

yet thus far seems to be an non issue and consensus of this forum is not much will change with PSA.....i would think if a poll was made, most people will think nothing will change but thats just my opinion...someone can always create a poll and prove me wrong...

[Johnny630]

Said this numerous times PSA has a Teflon Non Stick Liability/accountability business mode. Along with two of the biggest marketing hoaxes in the industry pop report and registry. This company will get through this just like all the other scandals. It will come out stronger in the long run/everyone else will take the fall. People are making to much money on their products......they know many are backed into a corner and have to use them for the most part. I’m referring to the major auction houses, dealers, and big eBay sellers. They’re not gonna bite the hand that feeds them. So what if they have to fire people if any have been tired to being paid off for gift grades bfd.
They have a brilliant business, I have to give them credit on that’s.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Said this numerous times PSA has a Teflon Non Stick Liability/accountability business mode. Along with two of the biggest marketing hoaxes in the industry pop report and registry. This company will get through this just like all the other scandals. It will come out stronger in the long run/everyone else will take the fall. People are making to much money on their products......they know many are backed into a corner and have to use them for the most part. I’m referring to the major auction houses, dealers, and big eBay sellers.
They have a brilliant business, I have to give them credit on that’s.

so basically you will be saying nothing will likely happen against them?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I'm no lawyer, but it looks like there is enough room in that statement to drive a truck through. Who is the guarantee for - only the original seller or any buyer down the road? And it seems like it's only the grade that is guaranteed - could they just take a card that was mis-graded, say altered but still given an number grade, and reholder it with an 'Authentic - Altered' and call that their guarantee? Holding them accountable would be like what Willie Stargell said of trying to hit Koufax, "trying to drink coffee with a fork".

The guarantee is not ambiguous at all. It covers marketplace purchasers (that was the whole point) and certainly applies to altered cards that were originally given numerical grades. PSA does not dispute this. The issue, rather, is application of the guarantee in individual cases, where they can control their payout just by sticking with the original grade.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The guarantee is not ambiguous at all. It covers marketplace purchasers (that was the whole point) and certainly applies to altered cards that were originally given numerical grades. PSA does not dispute this. The issue, rather, is application of the guarantee in individual cases, where they can control their payout just by sticking with the original grade.

In theory they can also change the rules and say properly 'restored' cards can still be a PSA 6 etc

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

In theory they can also change the rules and say properly 'restored' cards can still be a PSA 6 etc

You mean change their definition of what they consider unacceptable alterations? I suppose, but it's hard to believe they will given 25+ years of operating under the same definition.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

The body count just increases.....

I read through the entire thread and in addition to the Cheevers card, there was some VERY ENLIGHTENING BIT OF NEWS IF TRUE (maybe the bubble has finally burst and they see this as their only way of surviving as a business):

"A PSA representative told a collector at the Chicago show this weekend that they don't issue refunds for altered cards.

Last week, PSA returned a collector's proven trimmed card in the same PSA 10 slab that was sent in to receive compensation under their Grade Guarantee. They were told to seek a refund from the seller. The only problem is the card has quadrupled in value since they purchased it.

Good responses there when PSA doesn't even want to acknowledge or honor their Grade Guarantee."

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=59

I'd be curious if anyone else had heard about this stance allegedly held by PSA? Any comments regardless?

The reality IMO is that the number of altered slabbed cards, if exposed, would break PSA under their guaranty. Accordingly, to hear PSA allegedly take the position I highlighted in red does not surprise me in the least.

As yet this contingent liability has been kept under control because the market price of PSA slabbed cards has not been impacted to create the kind of financial loss that would induce card owners to spend the significant resources to sue under the guaranty. As the outing continues, presumably along with continued investigations by law enforcement, public knowledge of the fraud will increase. As has been noted, the question is whether it will increase to the point that the stock price of Collectors Universe will begin to fall, along with the market value of PSA slabbed cards.

Earlier I made a post expressing skepticism that absent a new TPG company that uses as part of its business model the outing of altered cards to gain market share, public knowledge may not increase to the level to threaten PSA. Now I simply don't know, and would not be surprised to see this all start to unravel sooner than might be expected.

This is a massive fraud folks, and based on Keith's video, raises the question if and to what extent PSA is in cahoots with the card doctors.

TPG was supposed to take us out of the wild west when deciding whether and how much to pay for a card. Peter's checklist of what a prudent person should do before deciding to buy a PSA slabbed card shatters any notion that TPG comes close to accomplishing this. It IS ridiculous that one would have to check off the items on Peter's list before going ahead with a purchase, and the fact it has IMO portends a not-so-rosy future for certain categories of PSA slabbed cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

Peter your impression which I believe to be 100% true is the reason nothing will change....the altering businesses will continue, PSA will will continue to thrive, the collectors are the last thing PSA Cares About.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

I think "done much" is the key phrase here. I have bought graded cards (though not many), BUT I didn't buy the cards because they were graded. I will still buy cards that are graded but will scrutinize and make appropriate offers on them as if they weren't. I think quite a few people here are at least of the same mind set. That's not much, but I am looking at the cards more closely and not enamored by someone else's opinion.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

Well, you all know what I'm doin....I'm Nancy Reagan, "Just Say No" to all of it.

Why anyone would want to continue to add to what already is easily a Billion $$$$$ fraud is beyond me? It is mind boggling actually. If one has to work with Peter's checklist before buying a stupid card, I don't see the fun or funny in it, honestly.

Ponzi's customers didn't want to believe the sky was falling either and kept adding to it too, much like this PSA SCAM. It's just the sad state of the human condition which is actually most fascinating thing in all this that I enjoy following. Even when they know it's a fraudulent billion dollar scam they can't take the foot off the pedal.

A nice little 2007 recession would shake things up a little.

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Well, you all know what I'm doin....I'm Nancy Reagan, "Just Say No" to all of it.

Why anyone would want to continue to add to what already is easily a Billion $$$$$ fraud is beyond me? It is mind boggling actually. If one has to work with Peter's checklist before buying a stupid card, I don't see the fun or funny in it, honestly.

Ponzi's customers didn't want to believe the sky was falling either and kept adding to it too, much like this PSA SCAM. It's just the sad state of the human condition which is actually most fascinating thing in all this that I enjoy following. Even when they know it's a fraudulent billion dollar scam they can't take the foot off the pedal.

A nice little 2007 recession would shake things up a little.

If there was another recession I would buy even more.

[Johnny630]

Recessions are the best time to buy. I absolutely do not want a recession. To many people get hurt and the altered cards are still crap, just cheaper crap.

[mq711]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

I’m not a big fish but haven’t submitted anything to PSA nor purchased anything from PWCC since I found out about this scandal. Decided to work on a midgrade, raw 1960s set just to keep my interest in the hobby alive.

Perfect example of my feelings is a 1969 Mays PSA 9 on EBay, all I can see is how short the card is in the holder (over 1/16 inch or 1cm) and thus wouldn’t buy it at any price.

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

I am but a minnow in an extremely large pond when it comes to grading but I did have about ten raw cards I considered sending to PSA as I had hoped for decent grades and being able to sell them for a profit. When this scandal broke I decided the last thing I wanted to do was contribute to the lunacy and have not and will not send those cards in.

I have recently bought already graded cards only because I was buying the card and the graded price and raw price was almost identical. These were low to mid grade cards that obviously have not been doctored and will likely be taken out of their slabs soon.

Reading the Blowout forums as well as a few others, there are certainly far to many people who speak out of both sides of their mouth when they say something needs to be done about this scandal yet send in their cards for grading. When and where do collectors take a stand is a question only each person can answer for themselves.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by whitehse

I am but a minnow in an extremely large pond when it comes to grading but I did have about ten raw cards I considered sending to PSA as I had hoped for decent grades and being able to sell them for a profit. When this scandal broke I decided the last thing I wanted to do was contribute to the lunacy and have not and will not send those cards in.

I have recently bought already graded cards only because I was buying the card and the graded price and raw price was almost identical. These were low to mid grade cards that obviously have not been doctored and will likely be taken out of their slabs soon.

Reading the Blowout forums as well as a few others, there are certainly far to many people who speak out of both sides of their mouth when they say something needs to be done about this scandal yet send in their cards for grading. When and where do collectors take a stand is a question only each person can answer for themselves.

I think the problem arises is this. Why should I be penalized because of all the crap Moser has pulled???? I am not trimming cards. Graded cards bring more. Period. I understand the boycott PSA mentality, but as I stated....Why should my collection take a monetary hit because of the greed of a few individuals?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I think the problem arises is this. Why should I be penalized because of all the crap Moser has pulled???? I am not trimming cards. Graded cards bring more. Period. I understand the boycott PSA mentality, but as I stated....Why should my collection take a monetary hit because of the greed of a few individuals?

Scruples.

And it's a lot more than just a few individuals. Moser is just one of very many that continue to get altered cards past PSA.

Money and personal gain seem to be the motivator and common denominator for the vast majority of those who continue to support this highly troubled Authenticator.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I think the problem arises is this. Why should I be penalized because of all the crap Moser has pulled???? I am not trimming cards. Graded cards bring more. Period. I understand the boycott PSA mentality, but as I stated....Why should my collection take a monetary hit because of the greed of a few individuals?

Their actions along with PSA's Failures have caused collateral damage to all of us. The collectors always get screwed.

It's a shame the industry and hobby will survive it always has and always will.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Their actions along with PSA's Failures have caused collateral damage to all of us. The collectors always get screwed.

It's a shame the industry and hobby will survive it always has and always will.

Right... Post #1073 illustrates exactly why it will take a significant market correction for people to change their collecting habits, and eventually stop supporting the corruption and deception.
But until that correction comes, very little is likely to change (unless by some miracle, the FBI can intervene).

[conor912]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Why should my collection take a monetary hit because of the greed of a few individuals?

The same reason all our houses and portfolios took a hit in 2009....the greed of a few individuals. Like it or not, everything’s linked.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I think the problem arises is this. Why should I be penalized because of all the crap Moser has pulled???? I am not trimming cards. Graded cards bring more. Period. I understand the boycott PSA mentality, but as I stated....Why should my collection take a monetary hit because of the greed of a few individuals?

For years that monetary value has had the benefit of that same greed of a few individuals.

[Peter_Spaeth]

all is well

https://seekingalpha.com/article/430...=seeking_alpha

[Goudey77]

I really don't need to state this to the educated collectors on Net54.
But I want to say the obvious in response to the comment below..You already know the driving factor in this entire hobby will always be about money. Everything is driven by TPG's, Auction Houses, VCP data and the consumers chasing profits.
Everything else is just noise.

It's not a casual sentimental hobby like it was in the 80's and earlier.
It's a foregone conclusion that the show must go on.

Originally Posted by whitehse

Reading the Blowout forums as well as a few others, there are certainly far to many people who speak out of both sides of their mouth when they say something needs to be done about this scandal yet send in their cards for grading. When and where do collectors take a stand is a question only each person can answer for themselves.

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

I really don't need to state this to the educated collectors on Net54.
But I want to say the obvious in response to the comment below..You already know the driving factor in this entire hobby will always be about money. Everything is driven by TPG's, Auction Houses, VCP data and the consumers chasing profits.
Everything else is just noise.

It's not a casual sentimental hobby like it was in the 80's and earlier.
It's a foregone conclusion that the show must go on.

I do not disagree that the driving factor in this issue is indeed money. A wiser man than I once wrote that the LOVE is money is the root of all evil (Thank you Paul).

My opinion is that there are far more collectors who collect for the fun of it and perhaps even the memories the hobby incites for them and not for the money. I strongly believe there is a much higher percentage of collectors who fall into this category and could care less about getting the highest grade possible or being the top dog on the registry. What I feel this means is that eventually, mid or low grade cards will become the norm and raw will once again make a come back and collectors who purchased these high grade cards will eventually lose money because their high grade cards will be tainted even if they are NOT doctored. There will still be speculators but I hope that this scandal will help separate a few of them out and help to eliminate some of the card doctors profits.

Maybe I am being a bit Pollyanna about this but I am still a hopeless romantic when it comes to this hobby.

[Goudey77]

Although there could be a loss due to natural collectible market scenarios. I'd say your last statement about high grade card prices losing due to being tainted regardless of doctoring is a pipedream

Money does not lose money generally. There will be no need for a fire sale. These cards are secure by their financially stable owners until the next buyer lines up to win it at the next auction.

Low mid grade will always be for the collectors. I just don't see much changing from the current state.

Originally Posted by whitehse

I do not disagree that the driving factor in this issue is indeed money. A wiser man than I once wrote that the LOVE is money is the root of all evil (Thank you Paul).

My opinion is that there are far more collectors who collect for the fun of it and perhaps even the memories the hobby incites for them and not for the money. I strongly believe there is a much higher percentage of collectors who fall into this category and could care less about getting the highest grade possible or being the top dog on the registry. What I feel this means is that eventually, mid or low grade cards will become the norm and raw will once again make a come back and collectors who purchased these high grade cards will eventually lose money because their high grade cards will be tainted even if they are NOT doctored. There will still be speculators but I hope that this scandal will help separate a few of them out and help to eliminate some of the card doctors profits.

Maybe I am being a bit Pollyanna about this but I am still a hopeless romantic when it comes to this hobby.