Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I assumed the grading fee correlated to the actual value of the asset.

Usually yes, but if you submit at a high price level and the card is found to be counterfeit, PSA doesn't refund you anything. If the card was submitted at a cheap level and then garners a grade making it worth a lot, they will contact the submitter and charge more for the submission after the fact.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Usually yes, but if you submit at a high price level and the card is found to be counterfeit, PSA doesn't refund you anything. If the card was submitted at a cheap level and then garners a grade making it worth a lot, they will contact the submitter and charge more for the submission after the fact.

Thanks for the info!

So, regarding the other concurrent thread, a buyer pays over $5k for a card graded 7, he then presumably pays the PSA fee to confirm authenticity/altered status/regrade, discovers it has been doctored, and returns the card (without the deceptive - worse than worthless - GAI holder.) It seems to me that the buyer really came out on the short end, losing those PSA fees.

And the seller receives his card back, along with info PSA determined, without having to pay PSA for it.

Ordinarily I would say the seller received a free review of his card and should appreciate that, but of course I understand, since the news from PSA was bad, it was news the seller did not want to hear. And since the card is now out of the GAI holder, its doctored status can no longer be hidden.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Mark17

So, regarding the other concurrent thread, a buyer pays over $5k for a card graded 7, he then presumably pays the PSA fee to confirm authenticity/altered status/regrade, discovers it has been doctored, and returns the card (without the deceptive - worse than worthless - GAI holder.) It seems to me that the buyer really came out on the short end, losing those PSA fees.

Well, both the buyer and seller are theoretically harmed by the decision. One is out cash, one is out an item in original condition. That's why PSA and other grading services have the ability to review the card while still in the holder, and only crack it out if the requested grade is met.

The buyer is trying to have it both ways here. They bought a card, and cracked it out to send to PSA raw. This should invalidate the return process since the card is no longer in the condition it was sold in; that's the risk that comes from cracking a card out. PSA's determination of minsize or alteration is their opinion, effectively. The seller should have never clicked on the button to accept the refund request.

Now the owner of the cracked out card cannot return it down the line, and is stuck with a loss through no fault of their own (presuming they purchased it in good faith).

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Now the owner of the cracked out card cannot return it down the line, and is stuck with a loss through no fault of their own (presuming they purchased it in good faith).

Right. There is definitely a loss involved here, and I think both buyer and seller are innocent of any wrongdoing. Somebody a long time ago, when GAI was still in business, snuck a doctored card through and got it slabbed a 7, and that person (or GAI's poor abilities) is at fault.

The only question really is, who takes the hit? The guy who was cheated originally (the seller) or the guy who paid his own money to PSA to uncover the fraud (the buyer.)

[swarmee]

It's like ripping the tag off a mattress or slicing the factory warranty sticker on a computer tower. Once you've cracked the card from the case, you've invalidated the warranty. That's the risk with taking the card out of the holder in the first place. If the card graded a VG-EX 4 by PSA instead of Altered, could the buyer return it to the seller at that point?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by swarmee

It's like ripping the tag off a mattress or slicing the factory warranty sticker on a computer tower. Once you've cracked the card from the case, you've invalidated the warranty.

What if I buy a computer system described as new, slice the factory warranty sticker on the tower and discover they sold me a system frankensteined together with a bunch of used parts? Is the fact I needed to slice the sticker to inspect it enough for them to put the blame on ME, while conveniently overlooking the real fraud?

Originally Posted by swarmee

That's the risk with taking the card out of the holder in the first place. If the card graded a VG-EX 4 by PSA instead of Altered, could the buyer return it to the seller at that point?

No. I would be 100% on the sellers side even if the asset received a PSA 1.

The card was altered. That does not have anything to do with a bunch of experts opining whether the card is a 4, or 5, or 6....

At some point someone doctored the card, and presumably GAI didn't discover the deception. All these years later, the deception was uncovered.

Outing doctored cards is a good thing, a public service to the hobby.

At least it used to be........ now I wonder...

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

What if I buy a computer system described as new, slice the factory warranty sticker on the tower and discover they sold me a system frankensteined together with a bunch of used parts? Is the fact I needed to slice the sticker to inspect it enough for them to put the blame on ME, while conveniently overlooking the real fraud?



No. I would be 100% on the sellers side even if the asset received a PSA 1.

The card was altered. That does not have anything to do with a bunch of experts opining whether the card is a 4, or 5, or 6....

At some point someone doctored the card, and presumably GAI didn't discover the deception. All these years later, the deception was uncovered.

Outing doctored cards is a good thing, a public service to the hobby.

At least it used to be........ now I wonder...

Are you the buyer?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Usually yes, but if you submit at a high price level and the card is found to be counterfeit, PSA doesn't refund you anything. If the card was submitted at a cheap level and then garners a grade making it worth a lot, they will contact the submitter and charge more for the submission after the fact.

AND that's a scam in it's own right, IMHO.

[drcy]

I've pondered if collectors (for those who do) accept altered cards that are mislabeled, how can they turn around and argue they should that they should be refunded for a card that is misidentified (fake labeled as authentic)?

[Johnny630]

I think everything is baked in now.....all the information is readily available for everyone. I see nothing changing we will see the same mantra.....be careful whom you buy from, buy from trusted reputable guys only...buy the card not the holder ect.....many people could care less if their card/cards are altered as long as they're in that almighty NB Slab all is cool to them.

Idk...It's very weird logic doesn't define reality ........above is my reality of this situation

[Johnny630]

58 White Letter Goes From a 8.5 to a 10 please check out.
BODA Corndog

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=237

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

58 White Letter Goes From a 8.5 to a 10 please check out.
BODA Corndog

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=237

This problem lies with the "idiots" paying $40K for a pristine...altered...4th year clemente card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

This problem lies with the "idiots" paying $40K for a pristine...altered...4th year clemente card.

I am sorry to correct you. They paid for a flip saying PSA 10.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

This problem lies with the "idiots" paying $40K for a pristine...altered...4th year clemente card.

Again, no lawsuits so people are obviously still happy/being reimbursed...

some people said why would there be lawsuits over cards that are less than 10k at issue but i think everyone will agree now there appears to be a number of cards with potential damages of over 10k...heck over 200k etc.....still it appears everyone is happy....hard to say this is rocking the hobby and 40k+ grade increases keep happening when no lawsuits filed...people appear to be happy or dont care.....basically there dont appear to be any victims....

i know i know...'its too early to tell etc'