Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Mark17

So, regarding the other concurrent thread, a buyer pays over $5k for a card graded 7, he then presumably pays the PSA fee to confirm authenticity/altered status/regrade, discovers it has been doctored, and returns the card (without the deceptive - worse than worthless - GAI holder.) It seems to me that the buyer really came out on the short end, losing those PSA fees.

Well, both the buyer and seller are theoretically harmed by the decision. One is out cash, one is out an item in original condition. That's why PSA and other grading services have the ability to review the card while still in the holder, and only crack it out if the requested grade is met.

The buyer is trying to have it both ways here. They bought a card, and cracked it out to send to PSA raw. This should invalidate the return process since the card is no longer in the condition it was sold in; that's the risk that comes from cracking a card out. PSA's determination of minsize or alteration is their opinion, effectively. The seller should have never clicked on the button to accept the refund request.

Now the owner of the cracked out card cannot return it down the line, and is stuck with a loss through no fault of their own (presuming they purchased it in good faith).

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Now the owner of the cracked out card cannot return it down the line, and is stuck with a loss through no fault of their own (presuming they purchased it in good faith).

Right. There is definitely a loss involved here, and I think both buyer and seller are innocent of any wrongdoing. Somebody a long time ago, when GAI was still in business, snuck a doctored card through and got it slabbed a 7, and that person (or GAI's poor abilities) is at fault.

The only question really is, who takes the hit? The guy who was cheated originally (the seller) or the guy who paid his own money to PSA to uncover the fraud (the buyer.)

[swarmee]

It's like ripping the tag off a mattress or slicing the factory warranty sticker on a computer tower. Once you've cracked the card from the case, you've invalidated the warranty. That's the risk with taking the card out of the holder in the first place. If the card graded a VG-EX 4 by PSA instead of Altered, could the buyer return it to the seller at that point?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by swarmee

It's like ripping the tag off a mattress or slicing the factory warranty sticker on a computer tower. Once you've cracked the card from the case, you've invalidated the warranty.

What if I buy a computer system described as new, slice the factory warranty sticker on the tower and discover they sold me a system frankensteined together with a bunch of used parts? Is the fact I needed to slice the sticker to inspect it enough for them to put the blame on ME, while conveniently overlooking the real fraud?

Originally Posted by swarmee

That's the risk with taking the card out of the holder in the first place. If the card graded a VG-EX 4 by PSA instead of Altered, could the buyer return it to the seller at that point?

No. I would be 100% on the sellers side even if the asset received a PSA 1.

The card was altered. That does not have anything to do with a bunch of experts opining whether the card is a 4, or 5, or 6....

At some point someone doctored the card, and presumably GAI didn't discover the deception. All these years later, the deception was uncovered.

Outing doctored cards is a good thing, a public service to the hobby.

At least it used to be........ now I wonder...

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

What if I buy a computer system described as new, slice the factory warranty sticker on the tower and discover they sold me a system frankensteined together with a bunch of used parts? Is the fact I needed to slice the sticker to inspect it enough for them to put the blame on ME, while conveniently overlooking the real fraud?



No. I would be 100% on the sellers side even if the asset received a PSA 1.

The card was altered. That does not have anything to do with a bunch of experts opining whether the card is a 4, or 5, or 6....

At some point someone doctored the card, and presumably GAI didn't discover the deception. All these years later, the deception was uncovered.

Outing doctored cards is a good thing, a public service to the hobby.

At least it used to be........ now I wonder...

Are you the buyer?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Are you the buyer?

The most expensive card I own is my T202 Birmingham's Home Run in PSA 5. I paid about $240 for it years ago, remembering Lew Lipset had written that it was the scarcest card in the set. I should've bought a Cobb instead.

So......... no.

[swarmee]

Ok, so you're a straw man guy. Got it.

I didn't realize there was any proof the card originally in the GAI holder was altered. PSA declared it was after the card was removed from the holder. There is no understanding of whether or not the card was altered after being cracked out, by the buyer. It may have been fine in the GAI holder, just overgraded.

Again, the precedent this sets is that any card can be removed from the holder and returned for a refund. Which would lead to even more fraud. I am all for rooting out fraud in the space, this just doesn't seem like the same thing. Your arguments are being read as white-knighting for the buyer, who know they did something wrong and are trying to pass the buck back to the unsuspecting seller.