Argument for why Tobacco insert cards cannot realistically be Grades of 8 or 9

[MW1]

Ted,

I usually agree with 99% of the things you write but on this issue, I think you're completely wrong. In the last 30 years, I have either heard of or seen in person a significant number of finds and original, untouched collections comprising significant quantities of ungraded NM-MT and even MINT condition T206s. I even encountered a collection that had about 50 T207s that were straight out of packs and, with the exception of centering, were Mint.

The assumption that 8s and 9s in PSA holders are frequently altered is mistaken.

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by MW1

Ted,

I usually agree with 99% of the things you write but on this issue, I think you're completely wrong. In the last 30 years, I have either heard of or seen in person a significant number of finds and original, untouched collections comprising significant quantities of ungraded NM-MT and even MINT condition T206s. I even encountered a collection that had about 50 T207s that were straight out of packs and, with the exception of centering, were Mint.

The assumption that 8s and 9s in PSA holders are frequently altered is mistaken.

I am going to go out on a limb and say this could be the accurate assumption. At least for a fair percentage of the higher grade examples.

If you look at the number of tobacco cards in population it's quite a lot. So if you take a tiny fraction and assume they survived high grade status it's not such a stretch. Not every cards fell in the hands of kids I assume. Adults who were the tobacco users couldve just stored these away in a box.

[LincolnVT]

In my opinion, T-cards often get a favorable bump. I've seen many Old Judge cards that look like an authentic come back with a "fair" or even "good" grade.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by LincolnVT

In my opinion, T-cards often get a favorable bump. I've seen many Old Judge cards that look like an authentic come back with a "fair" or even "good" grade.

comparing OJ's to T cards is yugos to toyotas

[benjulmag]

Here are the facts as I see them (in no particular order).

1. At the card shows of yesterday one very rarely saw a T206 that by today's standards would grade close to a real 8.
2. For a card to grade 8 or higher, assuming it was not damaged while in the pack, it would need to be gingerly removed from the pack and subsequently treated with tremendous care and essentially never handled.
3. There are very few oversized cards today compared with yesteryear.
4. The incremental increase in price from converting a 5 or 6 to an 8 or higher is staggering.
5. There is a significant population of known card doctors.
6. PSA spends very little time examining cards, which examinations are done with unsophisticated methods and in many instances performed by inexperienced graders.
7. When I blow up T206s graded 8 or higher from an online catalog that allows high resolution examination, I can literally see on a majority of them cardboard shavings and/or uneven borders/edges.

One of my father's favorite sayings was when one sees a hoofmark on a trail in the woods, expect to find a horse, not a zebra.

Applying that saying to the issue at hand, IMHO;

horse -- the great majority of T206 8's or higher are altered
zebra -- they are unaltered

[darwinbulldog]

What percentage of T206s survived at all? I believe the total production numbers were in the hundreds of millions, right? So what we're seeing is approximately 1 out of every 1 million manufactured T206s currently residing in a PSA 9 or 10 slab. I would have expected the number to be a little higher than that actually, but surely some of those cards were altered. Still, it would be more surprising to me if significantly less than 0.0001% of cards as sturdy as T206s had legitimately survived in 9+ condition for 110 years than if just a few hundred of them did. I imagine if you dumped a million new T206s off the roof of Factory 30, a few hundred of them would still be in mint condition.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Here are the facts as I see them (in no particular order).

1. At the card shows of yesterday one very rarely saw a T206 that by today's standards would grade close to a real 8.
2. For a card to grade 8 or higher, assuming it was not damaged while in the pack, it would need to be gingerly removed from the pack and subsequently treated with tremendous care and essentially never handled.
3. The are very few oversized cards today compared with yesteryear.
4. The incremental increase in price from converting a 5 or 6 to an 8 or higher is staggering.
5. There is a significant population of known card doctors.
6. PSA spends very little time examining cards, which examinations are done with unsophisticated methods and in many instances performed by inexperienced graders.
7. When I blow up T206s graded 8 or higher from an online catalog that allows high resolution examination, I can literally see on a majority of them cardboard shavings and/or uneven borders/edges.

One of my father's favorite sayings was when one sees a hoofmark on a trail in the woods, expect to find a horse, not a zebra.

Applying that saying to the issue at hand, IMHO;

horse -- the great majority of T206 8's or higher are altered
zebra -- they are unaltered

Of course proof and evidence are important, but, in the hobby, so are common sense. Most do, but some collectors lack it.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by MW1

Ted,

I usually agree with 99% of the things you write but on this issue, I think you're completely wrong. In the last 30 years, I have either heard of or seen in person a significant number of finds and original, untouched collections comprising significant quantities of ungraded NM-MT and even MINT condition T206s. I even encountered a collection that had about 50 T207s that were straight out of packs and, with the exception of centering, were Mint.

The assumption that 8s and 9s in PSA holders are frequently altered is mistaken.

Hi Michael

Nice to hear from you, it has been a while. Over the 40+ years that I've been in this hobby, I have been fortunate to acquire (or have seen) several original T206 collections.
Perhaps, not as many as you and your brother have, however here's an example of one of my more significant T206 "finds". In 2006, a fellow from South Carolina contacted
me regarding a T206 collection of approx. 400 assorted PIEDMONT cards. This collection had been in his family for 97 years. It was evident to me that the original owner of
these cards collected them from 1909 to mid 1910, since there were no PIEDMONT 350-460 series cards in it. Included with this group were 29 Southern League cards with
OLD MILL backs. Here's a breakdown of the condition of these T206's....80 % graded Vg-Ex, approx. 20 % were Ex, and 5 cards were near mint.

So, please don't misconstrue my argument here. Yes, in any given collection of original T206 cards there will be a small percentage of near mint cards that have survived all
these years; however, no where near the amount we are seeing in the various auctions, nowadays.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.