Argument for why Tobacco insert cards cannot realistically be Grades of 8 or 9

[atx840]

Nice post Ted, I can’t imagine how this survived in that condition for 110 years. Don’t like the top border.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by atx840

Nice post Ted, I can’t imagine how this survived in that condition for 110 years. Don’t like the top border.

Hi Chris

That CYCLE 350 Chase certainly looks better than the one I traded you several years ago....or, did you "enhance" it

Anyhow, just kidding you. But, it sounds like, you suspect this card was "enhanced" ?

Hey guy, it was really great seeing and talkin' T206's with you at the National last month.


TED Z

T206 Reference
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[JackW]

Is it unrealistic to think that not every T206 found its way into a pack?

[Bridwell]

I agree with Ted. It seems unlikely that even 1 out of 100 would survive in perfect condition. I think that PSA used to be fairly generous on PSA 8's. I've seen some with a slightly dinged corner, for example, or surface wear, or a back stain. With a newer card, the card would only get a PSA 6 but as a T206 it gets an 8?

Trimming is certainly a factor as well. I believe there are a significant percentage of PSA 8's and higher that have been trimmed or doctored in some way. For example, a card that is not a perfect rectangle. It seems unlikely that a top border would be skewed but the bottom border perfectly aligned. I'm not sure how that could naturally occur in the printing process.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by JackW

Is it unrealistic to think that not every T206 found its way into a pack?

Some may not have. But to me that changes little. Here's the main point as I see it.

For a card to survive in true 8 or higher condition, at ALL times in its existence the handler must be CONSCIOUS of the need to do nothing that could cause anything greater than a microscopic deterioration in condition. So the question is -- Who on earth in that era when cards literally had no financial value would be conscious of such a thing? A collector you might say? Okay, let's look at the most well-known one -- Jefferson Burdick. If you look through his various albums, I would say the average card on a good day is a vg. I'm not sure a single card would grade (even close to) an 8. And this guy appreciated collecting as much as anyone. BTW, vg-ex to ex cards neatly displayed in a book without much toning look beautiful!

When I was a kid and obsessed with collecting, I was particularly conscious of condition. So if my card was an excellent, I would regard it as satisfactory from every perspective. Even in the 80's when people started to become excessively anal about condition, an 8 in those days would probably be a 6 today. In 1984 I bought an entire T206 set (minus the big 4 (though then it was the big 3)). It was sold as a nrmt-mt set. Sure, I understood the puffery associated with grading and did not expect the average grade to be that. After I bought it I described in as an ex-mt+ to nr-mt set. Some years later I traded it, and some years after that I saw the set in an auction, each card having been graded and an individual lot. As I recall, the great majority of cards were in the 4 to 5 range, and I don't believe a single card graded higher than a 6.

So to me at least, taking all these things into account and applying simple common sense, I believe that what we are witnessing in regard to the population of ultra high-graded vintage registry cards is one of the greatest hoaxes collecting has ever seen.

[barrysloate]

It is no doubt a hoax Corey, but it is the engine that propels this hobby forward. If we all agree that the registry is what brings the big money into the hobby, then the hobby needs as many high grade cards as possible. So wouldn't it make perfect sense to turn a blind eye to the chicanery of the card doctors, since they are providing a service that is desperately needed? They are supplying the hobby with high grade cards, thus making access to the registry that much easier. The more high grade cards out there, the more well pocketed collectors can play.

Third party grading was never about accuracy and precision. It was always about keeping customers happy and coming back. When I was active in the business, I remember having a number of conversations with customers that went something like this: I sent five cards to the TPG, and four of them came back with evidence of trim. As such, I will never do business with that company again. Those conversations stuck with me. That's when I realized that collectors don't want a blunt assessment, they want good news. Good news is what keeps them in the hobby and makes them repeat customers. Bad news sends them someplace else.

Third party graders never entered the hobby to clean it up and expose all the fraud. They came in to make a lot of money. And the way to do that is to make people happy. Why do you think when a collector resubmits a card for a regrade, the condition can only go up but can never go down? Because that's the only way to keep cards coming back for a second or third or fourth grading fee. If the card's grade could go down, the resubmission business would dry up. It's not about an accurate assessment, it's about keeping customers happy.

That's the business model. And the hoax you cite is really what helps the TPG's remain so very profitable. They may not be that skilled in grading and authenticating, but they are incredibly skilled at making money for themselves, their clients, and their stockholders.

[benjulmag]

I think that is a short term view Barry. As you yourself said, eventually technology overtakes everything, and so it will with card grading and exposing what has been going on. And when that happens, the hobby is going to suffer one huge black eye.

I believe this hobby is strong enough to be propelled with an engine not fueled by fraud.

[barrysloate]

I very much hope you are correct.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

For a card to survive in true 8 or higher condition, at ALL times in its existence the handler must be CONSCIOUS of the need to do nothing that could cause anything greater than a microscopic deterioration in condition.

There is at least one other option -- have you seen the Hall cards being auctioned in Heritage? Many of the high-grade Hall cards do not deserve an 8, and I will bet dimes to dollars that anyone else would have gotten 5's, 6's and 7's on many of his 8's. Also, grading standards have changed over the years, meaning many high grade cards sit in graded-flips they could not obtain today/under a different standard. In other words, not all 8's and 9's are equal, and likely many on the pop report do not deserve their grade.

[tedzan]

Hi Ryan

What you are suggesting regarding Hall's collection was not always true.

I've sold David quite a number of T206's these past years. Many of them ungraded, and at least 40 of them graded.
The majority of the graded cards were SGC graded. Of course, he had these SGC's regraded to PSA cards. Well, not
all of these were PSA graded with the same grade SGC initially graded them. Many of them received a lower grade.
The most notable one is this Herzog / UZIT (1 of 1), which PSA graded it VG.


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TED Z

T206 Reference
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