Let's discuss conspiracies and a billion dollar fraud

[drcy]

Originally Posted by steve B

Oddly, I think that the most reliable slab is currently BCCG.

Do they still do that?

I wonder if a grading company with a 1-5 grading scale like we sort of had in the late 70's would succeed?

My funny story is I had a tour of the Beckett facilities in Dallas, and sitting on the floor in a hallway was a box of unused holders. I joked to the grading director that I could steal those and make my own graded cards. He laughed and said "You wouldn't want those. Those are BCCC holders." He knew.

[Exhibitman]

When TPGs started I (and many others I spoke with) thought it was stupid. Dennis Purdy even wrote his prescient "Smoke Detectors Without Batteries" column in VCBC #7 in 1996. Just like opioids, however, the TPGs manufactured demand: a few companies figured out that they could make a market. Brilliant marketing with terrible blow-back.

IMO the main driver of the corruption is the PSA registry. It begins and ends with the demand created by pitting egotistical collectors against each other for the 'best' collections. That plus the TPGs' abject failure at analyzing cards (and perhaps some outright corruption) was an open door to the crap we are dealing with today.

The only solution is to stop playing their game. Put the TPGs out of business by refusing to use their services and deleting all registry sets and eventually the 'easy' money will be taken out of the hobby. Then the slimy things will slither back into the sewer and go bother the coin collectors.

Not gonna happen unfortunately: too much invested in the status quo.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

As I scroll through the Blowout threads, two things have become undeniably obvious: the gross ineptitude of third party grading for detecting altered cards and the staggering return on investment by the card doctors. Altering an $18 card into a $3500+ card is mind boggling and it just goes on and on.

I'm certain that the majority of the registry collectors aren't even aware of the problem, so unless law enforcement gets involved or there is a massive law suit, I believe it will just go on as business as usual and the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars worth of bad cards will just be repeatedly bought and sold and be passed on indefinitely.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

As I scroll through the Blowout threads, two things have become undeniably obvious: the gross ineptitude of third party grading for detecting altered cards and the staggering return on investment by the card doctors. Altering an $18 card into a $3500+ card is mind boggling and it just goes on and on.

I'm certain that the majority of the registry collectors aren't even aware of the problem, so unless law enforcement gets involved or there is a massive law suit, I believe it will just go on as business as usual and the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars worth of bad cards will just be repeatedly bought and sold and be passed on indefinitely.

Yep... spot on.

Law enforcement must come down hard on the Doctors, Shady Dealers and TPGs, if any type of meaningful change is to result from this.

Probably foolish, but I remain cautiously optimistic.

[Mrc32]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

As I scroll through the Blowout threads, two things have become undeniably obvious: the gross ineptitude of third party grading for detecting altered cards and the staggering return on investment by the card doctors. Altering an $18 card into a $3500+ card is mind boggling and it just goes on and on.

Turning $18 into $3500? Well with returns like that I'd expect a lot more crooks to give it a whirl. Wow.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Mrc32

Turning $18 into $3500? Well with returns like that I'd expect a lot more crooks to give it a whirl. Wow.

If you look at the link on the opening post and scroll down, you'll see a 1959 Topps Eddie Miksis that went from a PSA 8 to a PSA 10. Actually the final sale was $3605.00! That's utter madness for a common card in my opinion and sadly, it's virtually a worthless card. In fact, if you look at PSA's website, in their "Lingo" directory, they define "trimmed" as follows (bold added for emphasis) and by their own admission they acknowledge trimmed cards have very little value:

"A card that has been altered by cutting or shaving the edges. The most obvious reason for this is to improve the condition of corners, by removing the worn areas. Cards are also trimmed to correct centering problems. Cards that have been trimmed have very little value."

https://www.psacard.com/resources/lingo/t/

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

If you look at the link on the opening post and scroll down, you'll see a 1959 Topps Eddie Miksis that went from a PSA 8 to a PSA 10. Actually the final sale was $3605.00! That's utter madness for a common card in my opinion and sadly, it's virtually a worthless card. In fact, if you look at PSA's website, in their "Lingo" directory, they define "trimmed" as follows (bold added for emphasis) and by their own admission they acknowledge trimmed cards have very little value:

"A card that has been altered by cutting or shaving the edges. The most obvious reason for this is to improve the condition of corners, by removing the worn areas. Cards are also trimmed to correct centering problems. Cards that have been trimmed have very little value."

https://www.psacard.com/resources/lingo/t/

Look for PSA to delete the reference to trimmed cards having very little value. Nothing to see here folks.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Look for PSA to delete the reference to trimmed cards having very little value. Nothing to see here folks.

No doubt Todd. Aggressive damage control seems to be paramount at PSA.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Also, the acronym TPG should now be TPH (third party holdering) as their service only offers a means of storage.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

As I scroll through the Blowout threads, two things have become undeniably obvious: the gross ineptitude of third party grading for detecting altered cards and the staggering return on investment by the card doctors. Altering an $18 card into a $3500+ card is mind boggling and it just goes on and on.

Well said Dan. The TPGs are the biggest offenders -- their fundamental job is to detect alterations; thats what they are literally paid to do. The card doctors obviously suck, but if the TPGs did their job, the incentive to doctor cards would go down significantly.

In my opinion, after the TPGs, the next largest offenders are sales outlets/auction houses, who knowingly use their platform to assist, and even participate along with, card doctors in selling altered cards while hiding behind the fact that a TPG put the card in a flip -- "thats their job, not ours".

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Well said Dan. The TPGs are the biggest offenders -- their fundamental job is to detect alterations; thats what they are literally paid to do. The card doctors obviously suck, but if the TPGs did their job, the incentive to doctor cards would go down significantly.

In my opinion, after the TPGs, the next largest offenders are sales outlets/auction houses, who knowingly use their platform to assist, and even participate along with, card doctors in selling altered cards while hiding behind the fact that a TPG put the card in a flip -- "thats their job, not ours".

Sorry but the fools paying incredulous sums of money for psa 10 commons are part of the problem as well!

[drcy]

It's bigger and bigger and wider and wider: New Blowout thread

And a quote from PSA's own forum: "One thing that will be important for PSA to eventually address is whether all this trimming is being missed because insufficient time is being devoted per card, or because PSA just isn’t able to detect it."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by drcy

It's bigger and bigger and wider and wider: New Blowout thread

And a quote from PSA's own forum: "One thing that will be important for PSA to eventually address is whether all this trimming is being missed because insufficient time is being devoted per card, or because PSA just isn’t able to detect it."

Or..... or......

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

As I scroll through the Blowout threads, two things have become undeniably obvious: the gross ineptitude of third party grading for detecting altered cards and the staggering return on investment by the card doctors. Altering an $18 card into a $3500+ card is mind boggling and it just goes on and on.

I'm certain that the majority of the registry collectors aren't even aware of the problem, so unless law enforcement gets involved or there is a massive law suit, I believe it will just go on as business as usual and the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars worth of bad cards will just be repeatedly bought and sold and be passed on indefinitely.

Well said !! :-)

I see one of the major problems is Zero Repercussion or Fear of Prosecution to the Card Doctors. I’ve overheard a person at show saying once’s the cards are graded they’re graded I’m off the hook.

Will PSA or auction houses turn in these people?? Doubtful, why because they’re possibly in cahoots. Unless there is emails or text messages that can pin down specifics it’s going to be very difficult.

When the scandal hit everyone was balls to the wall to put doctors in jail now crickets.

I don’t know...what is everyone else’s thoughts about this.