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#51
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+1 It is their gravy train. Unfortunately it seems they often really suck at their job.
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Leon Luckey www.luckeycards.com |
#52
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The slab could be all black, nothing blacker... ![]() |
#53
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SCD had an 11 point grading scale a few years ago.
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Rick McQuillan T213-2 139 down 46 to go. |
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My funny story is I had a tour of the Beckett facilities in Dallas, and sitting on the floor in a hallway was a box of unused holders. I joked to the grading director that I could steal those and make my own graded cards. He laughed and said "You wouldn't want those. Those are BCCC holders." He knew.
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#55
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When TPGs started I (and many others I spoke with) thought it was stupid. Dennis Purdy even wrote his prescient "Smoke Detectors Without Batteries" column in VCBC #7 in 1996. Just like opioids, however, the TPGs manufactured demand: a few companies figured out that they could make a market. Brilliant marketing with terrible blow-back.
IMO the main driver of the corruption is the PSA registry. It begins and ends with the demand created by pitting egotistical collectors against each other for the 'best' collections. That plus the TPGs' abject failure at analyzing cards (and perhaps some outright corruption) was an open door to the crap we are dealing with today. The only solution is to stop playing their game. Put the TPGs out of business by refusing to use their services and deleting all registry sets and eventually the 'easy' money will be taken out of the hobby. Then the slimy things will slither back into the sewer and go bother the coin collectors. Not gonna happen unfortunately: too much invested in the status quo. ![]()
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Read my blog; it will make all your dreams come true. https://adamstevenwarshaw.substack.com/ Or not... Last edited by Exhibitman; 08-27-2019 at 11:56 AM. |
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As I scroll through the Blowout threads, two things have become undeniably obvious: the gross ineptitude of third party grading for detecting altered cards and the staggering return on investment by the card doctors. Altering an $18 card into a $3500+ card is mind boggling and it just goes on and on.
I'm certain that the majority of the registry collectors aren't even aware of the problem, so unless law enforcement gets involved or there is a massive law suit, I believe it will just go on as business as usual and the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars worth of bad cards will just be repeatedly bought and sold and be passed on indefinitely.
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." - Mark Twain |
#57
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Law enforcement must come down hard on the Doctors, Shady Dealers and TPGs, if any type of meaningful change is to result from this. Probably foolish, but I remain cautiously optimistic. |
#58
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t205 midgrade and always looking for M101-2 Sporting News Supplements |
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In my opinion, after the TPGs, the next largest offenders are sales outlets/auction houses, who knowingly use their platform to assist, and even participate along with, card doctors in selling altered cards while hiding behind the fact that a TPG put the card in a flip -- "thats their job, not ours". Last edited by Rhotchkiss; 08-27-2019 at 01:55 PM. |
#60
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I see one of the major problems is Zero Repercussion or Fear of Prosecution to the Card Doctors. I’ve overheard a person at show saying once’s the cards are graded they’re graded I’m off the hook. Will PSA or auction houses turn in these people?? Doubtful, why because they’re possibly in cahoots. Unless there is emails or text messages that can pin down specifics it’s going to be very difficult. When the scandal hit everyone was balls to the wall to put doctors in jail now crickets. I don’t know...what is everyone else’s thoughts about this. Last edited by Johnny630; 08-27-2019 at 02:55 PM. |
#61
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"A card that has been altered by cutting or shaving the edges. The most obvious reason for this is to improve the condition of corners, by removing the worn areas. Cards are also trimmed to correct centering problems. Cards that have been trimmed have very little value." https://www.psacard.com/resources/lingo/t/
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." - Mark Twain |
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Also, the acronym TPG should now be TPH (third party holdering) as their service only offers a means of storage.
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." - Mark Twain Last edited by WhenItWasAHobby; 08-27-2019 at 03:05 PM. |
#63
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#64
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It's bigger and bigger and wider and wider: New Blowout thread
And a quote from PSA's own forum: "One thing that will be important for PSA to eventually address is whether all this trimming is being missed because insufficient time is being devoted per card, or because PSA just isn’t able to detect it." |
#65
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Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions. ![]() My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ |
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RAUCOUS SPORTS CARD FORUM MEMBER AND MONSTER FATHER. GOOD FOR THE HOBBY AND THE FORUM WITH A VAULT IN AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION FILLED WITH WORTHLESS NON-FUNGIBLES 274/1000 Monster Number |
#67
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A number of regular posters at the PSA forum have posted there that they are not buying graded cards, at least until they see how this turns out.
It is the PSA forum and posters know they can only go far, but a good number of people have expressed great disappointment and questions. |
#68
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Ecclesiastes 1:9
What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun. https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5489
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Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions. ![]() My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 08-27-2019 at 04:22 PM. |
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Actually, I got some new shoes yesterday. Though one thing not new under the sun is that I'm looking sharp. Though I'd phrase it as "Goes without saying."
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#71
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__________________
Now watch what you say, or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh, fanatical, criminal Won't you sign up your name? We'd like to feel you're acceptable, respectable, presentable, a vegetable If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other.- Ulysses S. Grant, 18th US President. |
#72
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Thanks for the link to the Blowout post and I can personally attest that many, if not all of those PSA-related machinations are true in relation to suppressing the alteration problems. I too exited the graded-card hobby in 2008 and when I publicly exposed examples of doctored PSA cards in 2009, Orlando banned me from the CU message boards and deleted my retired sets from the Set Registry.
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." - Mark Twain |
#73
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No doubt Todd. Aggressive damage control seems to be paramount at PSA.
__________________
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." - Mark Twain |
#74
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I think more will come out in regards to the trimmed cards...its endless.. we probably haven't even touched the surface esp when it comes to new shiny ones... which I believe Jeff L had eluded to.
Ricky Y |
#75
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__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions. ![]() My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ |
#76
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Assuming by now OP has backed down from the ledge of his original request that we all simply ditch the hobby or refrain from purchasing en masse until card values become dramatically deflated, or all of the bad guys go to jail. One, you know personal freedoms and all, and two - completely unrealistic even for a few seconds.
I’m probably not going to say anything new here, but I’m a collector and not an investor, and while it would not hurt my feelings for a minute to suddenly see PSA have to shutter their doors, at the end of the day I’m still going to be a baseball fan and a hobbyist. I have nowhere near 100k tied up in cards, and if I find myself in that situation one day I’m probably also going to be in divorce court. Question - what did adult hobbyists find to talk about back in the 1980’s and 90’s when there were no TPG’s and no internet message boards? (I was only a kid hobbyist then, whose mother occasionally indulged his obsession with cards from the 1950’s and 60’s.) And with such substantial less risk of being caught at doing something so outrageous as altering old baseball cards to make them look better - how do we not know or even assume that the level of alteration going on back then was WAY more prevalent than what we are seeing with PWCC today? This is after all ostensibly why PSA was even founded. The point is it did not stop the memorabilia explosion that we thought was happening back then, which is even more ridiculously explosive and overall healthy as evidenced by the dollars which continue to flow today. I would agree with some of the other posts here which point out that yes the economy and other situations will go up and down, but I would have to imagine another Hooverville-esqe situation on the world stage before the day comes that I’m actually able to afford a decent ‘52 #311 for less than the value of my car. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
Postwar stars & HOF'ers. Cubs of all eras. Currently working on 1956, '63 and '72 Topps complete sets. Last edited by jchcollins; 08-28-2019 at 01:06 PM. |
#77
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Here's one of my hobby history posts that details a big controversy over the commercialization of the hobby that took place in 1968-69. A lot of these discussions have been going on for a long time. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=234476 Also, see these articles in SCD about fake autographs and the problems with PSA -- from 1996, 23 years ago. They were raising many of the same issues we're dealing with today. http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=271015 Quote:
http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=262868 |
#78
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Who would have imagined Alan "Mr Mint" Rosen would have been the voice of reason back in 1996. In that SCD article he says, "I believe there is a true need for a service, to tell someone that the card is not trimmed, to tell someone it's not fake or doctored in any way or bleached. That would be a great service for the hobby. But once you put that little number on it, that creates greed. And we don't need that right now. We need to bring customers back in, not alienate them."
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#79
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#80
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First let me start by saying that I have also been a long time collector and I am not happy with the current situation and fraud . I mostly collect Prewar T205-T206, Goudey etc and some 50s-60s stars Mantle , Mays , Aaron etc
95 % of my cards are graded Psa - SGC grades 3-5 . I like my cards graded and protected .I have approx 400-450 cards and My guess wound be that none of them are altered or trimmed. A lot of them I bought raw and sent in myself for grading and the rest I bought from reputable dealers at shows , EBay and right here on Net 54. I enjoy this hobby and am not going to let a few dishonest A-Holes ruin my enjoyment. I do not have high end cards or need the best example or highest graded. The OP and many others are suggesting that the whole Hobby is a criminal enterprise and I totally disagree . There are many , many more descent hobbyists and sellers then crooks. You just need to know who your dealing with. John P |
#81
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I hope the scandal chases all the douchebags away. The people who smoked cigars, drank expensive wine, drank all the weird coffee because it was hip, then moved on to the next fad.
A lot of the morons who have to have the #1 rated set in the registry but couldn't tell you what team the players played for. The guys who spend $20,000 for a 1/1 of the biggest prospect, just to brag on YouTube but couldn't pick that player out of a lineup or even pronounce his name correctly. I wouldn't miss any of those assholes. |
#82
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I still use "pack fresh" (if they are) when describing cards, especially lots. I try to provide 'guidance' as to the centering of the cards, but I don't always get into specific OCs (80/20, 70/30, etc). I usually scan a 'sampling' of the cards as an indication. I would also note if there were gum stains on x number or y% of the cards. Again, mostly for lots. Technically, they are not "mint", but I rarely go higher than NM when trying to specify a grade anyway. Individual cards get the 'high scan treatment' with a statement of grade without considering centering and noting any defects as needed. Most can tell how well the card is or isn't centered and judge on their own what the means to them. I get a lot of "exactly as" or "better than" described, which may mean I leave money on the table, but oh well. My piece of mind and not having to worry about nit picking is worth the cost. ![]() |
#83
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That idea of the preservation of the card being the important part is probably the only thing we ever had in common. He did know his cards though... |
#84
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It doesn't affect me one way or another . More power to them. Some people just have way more disposable $$$ than others to,spend. They should be able to spend it anyway they want. Not sure why it upsets you so much. John P |
#85
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Lets say a card in a 6 is 80, and in an 8 it's 200. Someone takes a 6, trims it and gets an 8... Then sells through a popular venue where possibly some of the bids aren't legit. And that fake 8 sells for 300. Hey... that just went up 50%... maybe now the 6s should be higher. Maybe not 50% higher, lets say instead of going to 120, it only goes to 100. Well, that's not so bad if I already own one, but that pricing is still a total sham. If I don't already own one, someone just trimmed a card an potentially cost me and anyone else wanting a 6 an extra 20 Or, If I want a legit 8, and there's only say 20 of them, and nearly all have been trimmed to make fake 9s... I may not be able to buy it at all. Between two trimmers, there may be no legitimate 8s left. Like it or not, it affects us all. And PSA is leading the parade of corruption and incompetence. |
#86
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I believe in the not to distant future that PSA’s Slabs/Opinions will be worth far less to the market then they are currently. I’ve said this for years, Registry and Pop Report are two of their biggest money making marketing tools. Both are inaccurate and total BS Last edited by Johnny630; 08-29-2019 at 07:36 PM. |
#87
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__________________
Ron - Uncle Nacki T206 Master Monster Front/Back Set Collector - www.youtube.com/unclenacki T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524 T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ?? ![]() COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48 Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28 NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS Polar Bear 245/250 Sovereign 460 50/52 Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34 Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11 |
#88
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But then the Asset Doctors come along, and, using lower-graded or ungraded cards, produce another 5 PSA 8s. Now there are 10 in the market, which makes them half as scarce. Doesn't it make sense that the price of an asset, all things being equal (same asset, same grade, same TPG) will be lower if 10 are in circulation, rather than 5? I think PSA, their numeric grading, and their registry create demand that inflates prices. But what the Doctors are doing, creating more of those higher grade cards, must have a somewhat mitigating impact, assuming the age-old concept of supply-demand is valid (and it is.) |
#89
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I was just referring to the name calling. Calling someone a D-Bag , Moron , A-Hole because they collect high end and maybe some of their cards may be altered is out of line. Save those names for the card trimmers and thieves. JP |
#90
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These guys are total douchebags, pure and simple. |
#91
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Is it immoral to chase a fad, or to have less knowledge of baseball than you require? |
#92
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John P |
#93
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Back to the subject at hand, y'all are worrying needlessly.
According to Joe, As far as the other question that you had in regards to this investigation of the auction here in our industry, I can answer it very short and sweet. We don't believe that there is anything of a material nature for our company to be concerned with. and And we think that in the overall scheme of our business that some of this has been blown way out of proportion. But we are very confident in the services that we provide and very confident in the grading staff that we have, and so is the public
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Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions. ![]() My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 08-30-2019 at 07:24 AM. |
#94
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#95
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Its been another several months....tons of different card owners out there that bought altered cards...yet zero lawsuits that i am aware of..
obviously people are satisfied with the card, the refund or the loss they are taking that its tough to put this in Category 5 scandal territory at least at this point. |
#96
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One quick trim to Yaz, and a $7,800 profit.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...315750&page=25 Seriously... Is PSA really not in on this scam somehow? The revelations and new altered card examples are gaining steam instead of subsiding. No legitimate TPG can really be this bad. It has to be something else. ![]() Since the blind majority are submitting in greater numbers than ever (and since PSA won't even acknowledge there's an issue), it appears our only hope is with the FBI. I hope they dig very deep on this, or an end will never be in sight. People will be submitting doctored cards in greater numbers than ever. ![]() Last edited by perezfan; 08-30-2019 at 01:14 PM. |
#97
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How many cards are harder to find that the T206 Wagner? Hundreds? How many are worth as much? The most valuable card in the 52 Topps High number set is a double print. The demand matters more than the supply, in most cases far more. Even for cards that are truly rare in high grades, that shouldn't necessarily translate into higher prices for lower grades, which are simply commons. But that's not reality. |
#98
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![]() ![]() ![]() 40 1 26809377 EXCELLENT-MINT 6 1965 Topps 170 Hank Aaron Card 41 1 26809378 EXCELLENT 5 1965 Topps 207 Pete Rose Card 42 1 26809379 NEAR MINT+ 7.5 1965 Topps 385 Carl Yastrzemski Card 43 1 26809380 VERY GOOD+ 3.5 1966 Topps 50 Mickey Mantle Card 43 2 26809381 VERY GOOD+ 3.5 1966 Topps 50 Mickey Mantle |
#99
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I hope the criminal at least left you positive feedback.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions. ![]() My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ |
#100
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And a small percentage of his $7,800 profit.
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