USA TODAY article regarding FBI subpoenas, doctoring, etc......

[Rhotchkiss]

Peter, who suddenly turned you into Eyor? Keep fighting the good fight. You and BODA are, and hopefully will continue, making a difference. What’s the worst that happens.... nothing changes. Thus, things can only get better and there is traction for that - FBI subpoenas, USA Today articles, some “rabbits” like me boycotting certain dealers, etc. And even if grassroot efforts cease, nothing good will come from the defeatist posts- that’s one way to embolden the wolves. Forward!! Or at least not backwards...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Peter, who suddenly turned you into Eyor? Keep fighting the good fight. You and BODA are, and hopefully will continue, making a difference. What’s the worst that happens.... nothing changes. Thus, things can only get better and there is traction for that - FBI subpoenas, USA Today articles, some “rabbits” like me boycotting certain dealers, etc. And even if grassroot efforts cease, nothing good will come from the defeatist posts- that’s one way to embolden the wolves. Forward!! Or at least not backwards...

Ryan, Al's post today was a sobering reminder that I've been complaining about hobby fraud for more than a decade now and, as he rightly put it, zero has changed. Another tipping point was trying unsuccessfully to get an obviously cleaned card taken down from an active auction. I'm like, what's the use?

You're right, the negativity was counterproductive and too melodramatic, I regret calling attention to myself I was just extremely frustrated by it all and I guess like anyone who is passionate about something and makes a lot of effort, I have a bit of ego invested in it. I'll refrain from now on.

PS the rabbits reference was a bit over the top but I said it and it's been quoted anyway so I'll just leave it standing. Sorry if it offended, but if people don't want to spend their hard earned money on altered cards they really need to exercise some restraint and educate themselves, because the powers that be are not looking out for you.

[barrysloate]

I'm not expecting any earth shattering changes, but this time somehow feels a little different. In the past we've had discussions about card doctoring, but we've never had the documentation that BO provided, and they did so hundreds of times over. That's a whole lot of evidence to back up the allegations.

Of course people with money and power will do everything they can to deny and cover this up, but the momentum is shifting. And I don't think it's far-fetched to suggest that new technology will be developed to expose all of the garbage that has been slabbed.

It won't happen tomorrow but I believe in the not too distant future we are going to see something change. Yes, we may be disappointed in its limited scope, but I remain guardedly optimistic.

[Rhotchkiss]

I’ve been called much worse than a rabbit!!

Anyway, I for one, have been very encouraged by the recent press, the attention on chat boards, and news of law enforcement involvement. At least there is some tangible proof of something (not sure what). You are a huge part of that. Thank you

[Al C.risafulli]

I'm like, what's the use?

It's always worth fighting for the thing you think is right, even if you lose. Even if you lose repeatedly.

-Al

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

It's always worth fighting for the thing you think is right, even if you lose. Even if you lose repeatedly.

-Al

Thanks Al, That's just what I'm trying to do by NEVER buying another card again. Not too many people care, but I take fraud seriously and do not support hobby's that are proven to be run by criminals like PWCC, PSA and all the other little card trimmers. I just don't need it, honestly. Just like I stopped with autographs. Very easy.

I try to stand up against companies I do not believe in. Did not buy an American car for 30 years and guess what.... NO MORE PROBLEMS. My wish came true when GM went bankrupt only to be bailed out. I was rooting for them to rot. So I fought for 3o+ years and lost there and many times over. Still, I will stand for something or nothing at all.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Did not buy an American car for 30 years and guess what.... NO MORE PROBLEMS.

Ask me how much I dislike my Toyota.... Very nearly the worst car I've driven, and I've driven some really bad cars.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ryan, Al's post today was a sobering reminder that I've been complaining about hobby fraud for more than a decade now and, as he rightly put it, zero has changed. Another tipping point was trying unsuccessfully to get an obviously cleaned card taken down from an active auction. I'm like, what's the use?

It also has to suck when your compadre is minimizing PWCC's involvement by saying it's only a couple hundred cards and hundreds of PWCC customers have already been refunded. I guess it's all over then. Jeff was looking out for us after all.

[Peter_Spaeth]

One, he actually said hundreds, not a couple of hundred. Two, it's a quote by a lawyer to the media, it won't affect anything. Three, my understanding is that Jeff has obtained over $1 million in restitution so far. While obviously I hope much more is done to punish the culpable, I do think that's for the good.

[edhans]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

One, he actually said hundreds, not a couple of hundred. Two, it's a quote by a lawyer to the media, it won't affect anything. Three, my understanding is that Jeff has obtained over $1 million in restitution so far. While obviously I hope much more is done to punish the culpable, I do think that's for the good.

+1

[rats60]

I may be naive, but the FBI is involved and I don't think they are going to leave things status quo. The FBI doesn't want to be fielding another investigation in a year or so with evidence from BODA with the same bad actors. Much like autographs, I see a big change. We will probably always have dishonest people altering cards and trying to pass them by TPGs, the same as we see with autos, but at a smaller scale. I had several dealers at the National tell me that TPGs are under pressure to tighten things up. They may lose business from card doctors, but they are a lot more profitable than they were in the past. It is a better option than dealing with the FBI. Maybe they will be able to meet their grading deadlines.

I talked with a number of collectors at the National about this too. The consensus is they are taking more care and buying less. When they buy something, they are no longer trusting TPGs and the slab. They are measuring and closely examining cards before deciding to keep them or send them back. I wouldn't put it past those who are heavily invested in slabs to be buying/shilling auctions to make it appear like things are still going strong while they try to liquidate. We saw that happen in 2016 with certain rookie cards. I am hopeful that at some point a new company will come along with new technology to detect altered cards, making it close to impossible for doctors to pass off their work on collectors.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by rats60

I may be naive, but the FBI is involved and I don't think they are going to leave things status quo. The FBI doesn't want to be fielding another investigation in a year or so with evidence from BODA with the same bad actors. Much like autographs, I see a big change. We will probably always have dishonest people altering cards and trying to pass them by TPGs, the same as we see with autos, but at a smaller scale. I had several dealers at the National tell me that TPGs are under pressure to tighten things up. They may lose business from card doctors, but they are a lot more profitable than they were in the past. It is a better option than dealing with the FBI. Maybe they will be able to meet their grading deadlines.

I talked with a number of collectors at the National about this too. The consensus is they are taking more care and buying less. When they buy something, they are no longer trusting TPGs and the slab. They are measuring and closely examining cards before deciding to keep them or send them back. I wouldn't put it past those who are heavily invested in slabs to be buying/shilling auctions to make it appear like things are still going strong while they try to liquidate. We saw that happen in 2016 with certain rookie cards. I am hopeful that at some point a new company will come along with new technology to detect altered cards, making it close to impossible for doctors to pass off their work on collectors.

+1

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

One, he actually said hundreds, not a couple of hundred. Two, it's a quote by a lawyer to the media, it won't affect anything. Three, my understanding is that Jeff has obtained over $1 million in restitution so far. While obviously I hope much more is done to punish the culpable, I do think that's for the good.

That's interesting that over $1 million has been paid in restitution so far. I would be curious to know if the customer's confidence in PSA has changed as a result in realizing some of their cards have been doctored or will it be business as usual?

It would disgust me to no end that PSA would get away with not paying any damages regarding this scandal. Hopefully they will shoulder the burden at some point as an incentive to clean up their act and be more vigilant in screening out the card doctors.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

That's interesting that over $1 million has been paid in restitution so far. I would be curious to know if the customer's confidence in PSA has changed as a result in realizing some of their cards have been doctored or will it be business as usual?

It would disgust me to no end that PSA would get away with not paying any damages regarding this scandal. Hopefully they will shoulder the burden at some point as an incentive to clean up their act and be more vigilant in screening out the card doctors.

+1

If PSA gets off scot free, then nothing is solved. As mentioned earlier, it's great that PWCC is refunding customers... certainly better than the alternative.

But that does not fix anything, moving forward. If we stop at simply issuing refunds, the same thing will occur again in the not so distant future. The punishment for card doctors and complicit auction houses must be severe and lengthy. And there must be a change in the way TPGs operate. A new set of standards must be implemented or forced upon them, as they cannot be trusted to police themselves. There is absolutely no safeguard in place to protect the customer/collector. Hopefully law enforcement will help to fill that role.

If not, then indeed nothing will change.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

+1

If PSA gets off scot free, then nothing is solved. As mentioned earlier, it's great that PWCC is refunding customers... certainly better than the alternative.

But that does not fix anything, moving forward. If we stop at simply issuing refunds, the same thing will occur again in the not so distant future. The punishment for card doctors and complicit auction houses must be severe and lengthy. And there must be a change in the way TPGs operate. A new set of standards must be implemented or forced upon them, as they cannot be trusted to police themselves. There is absolutely no safeguard in place to protect the customer/collector. Hopefully law enforcement will help to fill that role.

If not, then indeed nothing will change.

If the past is indicative of future results I’d say unfortunately PSA will get away with it again .....Registry is and will continue to be the brilliance that keeps them in business it’s a shame but Big Money Trumps All ....I would be surprised if PSA takes any Or is held accountable with anything.
It’s up to the Market/Consumers to put PSA in it’s place not LE.

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

It also has to suck when your compadre is minimizing PWCC's involvement by saying it's only a couple hundred cards and hundreds of PWCC customers have already been refunded. I guess it's all over then. Jeff was looking out for us after all.

+1